Sports 2025 Kentucky Derby (Triple Crown) Thread

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Wild

Zi Nazi
Admin
Dec 31, 2014
94,458
137,109
Alright everyone, we're 8 days out from the Kentucky Derby. Time to talk bets.

I use a ton of metrics to try and widdle the field down to 1) horses that I think can win 2) horses I think can run Top 4 (in the money), and 3) horses I can toss from all wagers. It's a lot of data & numbers, so dont bore yourselves with it, if it's TLDR.

Here's some of the metrics that I use:

Using the Conduit Mare in the last 24 KY Derbys only 1 Horse won the derby with a higher speed number then stamina number, and only 2 horses with that same number ratio have come in 2nd place. Two of those three were in 2020, when the Derby was run in September because of Covid, which messed things up with these horses 3 yr old forms & cycles.

Taking all of that into account, that leaves 10 horses with Higher Stamina than Speed: Sandman, Journalism, Rodriguez, Chunk of Gold, Publisher, American Promise, Flying Mohawk, Luxor Cafe, Admire Daytona and Grande. So your winner & second place finisher should come from that group.

That's 1 metric.

I also look at the final 3/8 time and final 1/8 time in the last big prep race. Historically, the winner of the Derby runs the final 3/8 in their final prep race in under 37.8 seconds & the final 1/8 in under 13 seconds. Those horses are: Journalism, Rodriguez, Tappan Street, Sovereignty, American Promise, Flying Mohawk, Grande, and Luxor Cafe. Final Gambit also did it, but it was only synthetic surface, which skews the #'s, so I toss that one.

Then I look at Jon Whites strike system, which has had a historically high hit rate for winners & horses running in the money. The lower the strikes, the better, but 3 strikes or less is key. Almost the entire field has less than 3 but Journalism, Sandman, and Tappan Street stand out with zero.

1745608074764.png

Then I look at their bloodlines. Horses who have Raise-A-Native (RAN) in their sire line, and Buckpasser on the X side of their dam side. This is a potent combo for determining Derby winners, as horses with this win at a 6x higher clip.

Horses with RAN: Burnham Square, Journalism, Luxor Cafe, Grande
Horses with Buckpasser-X: Rodriguez, Tiztastic, Final Gambit, Flying Mohawk, Admire Daytona
Horses with both: Luxor Cafe & Grande

There's other metrics I use, but these are the most important one's (for me anyway).
 
Last edited:

Hauler

Been fallin so long it's like gravitys gone
Feb 3, 2016
49,372
61,436


 

Hauler

Been fallin so long it's like gravitys gone
Feb 3, 2016
49,372
61,436
Alright everyone, we're 8 days out from the Kentucky Derby. Time to talk bets.

I use a ton of metrics to try and widdle the field down to 1) horses that I think can win 2) horses I think can run Top 4 (in the money), and 3) horses I can toss from all wagers. It's a lot of data & numbers, so dont bore yourselves with it, if it's TLDR.

Here's some of the metrics that I use:

Using the Conduit Mare in the last 24 KY Derbys only 1 Horse won the derby with a higher speed number then stamina number, and only 2 horses with that same number ratio have come in 2nd place. Two of those three were in 2020, when the Derby was run in September because of Covid, which messed things up with these horses 3 yr old forms & cycles.

Taking all of that into account, that leaves 10 horses with Higher Stamina than Speed: Sandman, Journalism, Rodriguez, Chunk of Gold, Publisher, American Promise, Flying Mohawk, Luxor Cafe, Admire Daytona and Grande. So your winner & second place finisher should come from that group.

That's 1 metric.

I also look at the final 3/8 time and final 1/8 time in the last big prep race. Historically, the winner of the Derby runs the final 3/8 in their final prep race in under 37.8 seconds & the final 1/8 in under 13 seconds. Those horses are: Journalism, Rodriguez, Tappan Street, Sovereignty, American Promise, Flying Mohawk, Grande, and Luxor Cafe. Final Gambit also did it, but it was only synthetic surface, which skews the #'s, so I toss that one.

Then I look at Jon Whites strike system, which has had a historically high hit rate for winners & horses running in the money. The lower the strikes, the better, but 3 strikes or less is key. Almost the entire field has less than 3 but Journalism, Sandman, and Tappan Street stand out with zero.

View attachment 158373

Then I look at their bloodlines. Horses who have Raise-A-Native (RAN) in their sire line, and Buckpasser on the X side of their dam side. This is a potent combo for determining Derby winners, as horses with this win at a 6x higher clip.

Horses with RAN: Burnham Square, Journalism, Luxor Cafe, Grande
Horses with Buckpasser-X: Rodriguez, Tiztastic, Final Gambit, Flying Mohawk, Admire Daytona
Horses with both: Luxor Cafe & Grande

There's other metrics I use, but these are the most important one's (for me anyway).

 

Hauler

Been fallin so long it's like gravitys gone
Feb 3, 2016
49,372
61,436
Your tri bets confuse me. That's just a 3 horse bet but you are listing half the field.

Or are those just variants on that partical leg - so you're placing like 80 bets to come up with the first 3 finishers?
 

Wild

Zi Nazi
Admin
Dec 31, 2014
94,458
137,109
Your tri bets confuse me. That's just a 3 horse bet but you are listing half the field.

Or are those just variants on that partical leg - so you're placing like 80 bets to come up with the first 3 finishers?
They're structured as wheels. I like to bet tri's this way, versus boxing them. Just personal preference.

Let's look at this one, for example.

$1 tri ($56):
Journalism
Rodriguez, Grande, Sovereignty, Luxor Café
Rodriguez, Sovereignty, Sandman, Luxor Café, Grande, Burnham Square, Publisher, American Promise, Final Gambit, Tiztastic, Chunk of Gold, Flying Mohawk, Coal Battle, Admire Daytona

Journalism has to WIN the race.

One of these 4 horses has to run 2nd: Rodriguez, Grande, Sovereignty, Luxor Cafe

Any of these horses can run 3rd: Rodriguez, Sovereignty, Sandman, Luxor Café, Grande, Burnham Square, Publisher, American Promise, Final Gambit, Tiztastic, Chunk of Gold, Flying Mohawk, Coal Battle, Admire Daytona
 

Wild

Zi Nazi
Admin
Dec 31, 2014
94,458
137,109
Rumors abound that Baeza, who ran 2nd to Journalism in the Santa Anita Derby, may draw into the field. If he does, I'll be adding him to my bets.
 

Wild

Zi Nazi
Admin
Dec 31, 2014
94,458
137,109
Rodriguez (the 4 horse) scratches, so Baeza (the 21) draws into the field from the Also Eligible list.

I pretty much just replaced the 4 with the 21 on my tickets.

IMG_0258.jpeg
IMG_0259.jpeg
 
Last edited:

Wild

Zi Nazi
Admin
Dec 31, 2014
94,458
137,109
#10 Grande has been scratched. That is now two of my top 4 who have been eliminated from the race. Time to revise the tickets again.
 

Wild

Zi Nazi
Admin
Dec 31, 2014
94,458
137,109
If you were to make these wheel bets at the actual track would the people behind you in line throw mint juleps at you?
Nah, I could place all of those bets at a betting window in 3 minutes. As fast as the clerk can punch the numbers in. Same goes for a betting machine. The problem at the Derby is when drunks go up there unprepared, trying to go off memory, or placing bets for multiple people in their groups. That's when the yelling, screaming, and fights occur. It's why the betting lines are 75-100 people deep, and there's 30 of them. Anyone with a brain is betting on their apps while AT the Derby.
 

Hauler

Been fallin so long it's like gravitys gone
Feb 3, 2016
49,372
61,436
Nah, I could place all of those bets at a betting window in 3 minutes. As fast as the clerk can punch the numbers in. Same goes for a betting machine. The problem at the Derby is when drunks go up there unprepared, trying to go off memory, or placing bets for multiple people in their groups. That's when the yelling, screaming, and fights occur. It's why the betting lines are 75-100 people deep, and there's 30 of them. Anyone with a brain is betting on their apps while AT the Derby.
Never been to the Derby.
Went to Thurby a few times but we were in like a suite type thing. Betting windows were never more than 4 or 5 people deep.

I might try your wheel type thing but I don't know if FanDuel has it. I have the Churchill betting app too but I haven't used that since last Derby - so I'm assuming my balance ia pretty close to $0. ;)
 

Wild

Zi Nazi
Admin
Dec 31, 2014
94,458
137,109
Never been to the Derby.
Went to Thurby a few times but we were in like a suite type thing. Betting windows were never more than 4 or 5 people deep.

I might try your wheel type thing but I don't know if FanDuel has it. I have the Churchill betting app too but I haven't used that since last Derby - so I'm assuming my balance ia pretty close to $0. ;)
Every app should allow you to bet wheels. It's a very common, popular way of betting. Just pick whatever horses you want in the win slot, the place slot, and show slot. You can put multiple horses in multiple slots, including the same horses in multiple slots.

Example: 1, 2 (win slot) w/ 1, 2, 3 (place slot) with 1, 2, 3, 4 (show slot). So if the race ends with any of these Top 3 orders, you win.
1-2-3
1-2-4
1-3-2
1-3-4
2-1-4
2-1-3
2-3-1
2-3-4

Make sense?
 

Wild

Zi Nazi
Admin
Dec 31, 2014
94,458
137,109
Every app should allow you to bet wheels. It's a very common, popular way of betting. Just pick whatever horses you want in the win slot, the place slot, and show slot. You can put multiple horses in multiple slots, including the same horses in multiple slots.

Example: 1, 2 (win slot) w/ 1, 2, 3 (place slot) with 1, 2, 3, 4 (show slot). So if the race ends with any of these Top 3 orders, you win.
1-2-3
1-2-4
1-3-2
1-3-4
2-1-4
2-1-3
2-3-1
2-3-4

Make sense?
You can also do this with exactas & superfectas.
 

Hauler

Been fallin so long it's like gravitys gone
Feb 3, 2016
49,372
61,436
Every app should allow you to bet wheels. It's a very common, popular way of betting. Just pick whatever horses you want in the win slot, the place slot, and show slot. You can put multiple horses in multiple slots, including the same horses in multiple slots.

Example: 1, 2 (win slot) w/ 1, 2, 3 (place slot) with 1, 2, 3, 4 (show slot). So if the race ends with any of these Top 3 orders, you win.
1-2-3
1-2-4
1-3-2
1-3-4
2-1-4
2-1-3
2-3-1
2-3-4

Make sense?
Yup.
I'll try it.

I usually just box trifectas.
And it's usually in a drunken stupor at 3 AM for a race in New Zeeland.

I don't win often.
 

Hauler

Been fallin so long it's like gravitys gone
Feb 3, 2016
49,372
61,436
I just decided I'm gonna have a Derby party tomorrow. Gonna pick up a keg on the way home from work.
 

Wild

Zi Nazi
Admin
Dec 31, 2014
94,458
137,109
It's gonna pour all day here tomorrow. The track will be a fucking mess by the time they run the Derby.