Is Technical Boxing More Harm Than Good In MMA

[Bobby Lupo]

I'm of the belief that MMA striking doesn't require technical, 'proper' boxing technique to be effective. As 'MMA striking' has evolved on its own, I see less and less use for a fighter to train like a boxer.

I look at certain fighters like Brock Lesnar and Tito Ortiz, who were top guys when they focused on wrestling and had a natural approach to striking by winging power punches to suit their wrestling (similar to what Fedor did on 03-05). Once Brock got with Peter Welch and Tito got with Juanito (and other famous boxing guys), they became rigid, and in turn, bad at striking. Look at Tito in the Chuck fights, trying to use the same high guard Rampage uses, Ortiz trapped himself behind a defensive posture, and Chuck was able to get the 4oz gloves through Tito's forearms and elbows and into his head. After the Randy fight (KO by punch to the shoulder after a vicious knee), Brock got a real boxing trainer...and lost every striking battle he was in.

Professional boxers like Alessio Sakara (KO'd by Leben, Houston Alexander, Brian Stann...guy's without 1/10th his boxing ability), and Marcus Davis, who was at times outstruck by guys who hit pads that their BJJ instructors held, even Jens Pulver's clean boxing let him down against Gomi swinging like he was throwing a baseball.

The sake-of-talking argument about boxers entering in the cage comes up, and IMO, unless it's a boxer with 1 punch power, I don't think they'll succeed in MMA. Floyd is a boxing genius, but his boxing style, and that of almost all non-bombers will get them clinched up and taken down in MMA. Guys like David Tua, Mike Tyson, Sergei Kovalev, would at least have a chance from striking range.

Another issue that MMA fighters have when they train with top boxing coaches, is: they rely too much on their new found boxing and less on what got them to where they were in the first place. Freddie Roach might be one of the best boxing coaches in the world, but, Shogun, Anderson Silva, Andrei Arlovski became less effective strikers after working with him, and GSP went from a dynamic MMA striker to a guy who just threw a jab 95% of the time.

And before someone brings up Conor, his ammy credentials are about the same as Dana White's. He's like some sort of TKD guy who's a physical genius with his hands, timing, and placement.

The only guys I can think of who benefitted from straight boxing training were Rampage under Juanito and BJ under Roach and Perillo

 

[Mad Dog]

I think guys that have good technical boxing do better because they learn the defensive side also. I'm thinking of Anderson Silva and Max Holloway right now. Building a good probing jab like GSP, Rory and Max have is a great way to set up your power shots.

 

[Rambo John J]

depends on skillset and opponent

many guys have bobbed into a head kick

But also many guys have dictated the fight be on the feet and the more technical striker/boxer wins that battle usually

It is true that a boxing guard (overeem) is not good with little gloves

good thread

 

[La Paix]

I thinks the same with any specific style. It's great to have a ton of knowledge and technical know how in boxing, BJJ or wrestling but if you can't blend it all together and and know what to use when you're fucked. It all comes down to what's effective for yourself.

K1 Reem got KTFO by sloppy hands Bigfoot, Hughes and Koshcheck couldn't do shIt with their wrestling on GSP, Maia looked like a fish after the first round against Rory...

 

[ender852]

Interesting thoughts. Articulated well what I was thinking for a while now, boxing(especially defensive boxing) is sabotaging people's performance. I do think a lot of people could benefit from training and employing a jab, simple techniques)

 

[Mad Dog]

depends on skillset and opponent

many guys have bobbed into a head kick

But also many guys have dictated the fight be on the feet and the more technical striker/boxer wins that battle usually

It is true that a boxing guard (overeem) is not good with little gloves

good thread

Overeem's style always bugged me. He has zero jab. He basically tries to dodge a kick or punch and then close distance with a hard strike. I always felt like a probing jab or teep would go a long way toward helping him close distance.

 

[La Paix]

Overeem's style always bugged me. He has zero jab. He basically tries to dodge a kick or punch and then close distance with a hard strike. I always felt like a probing jab or teep would go a long way toward helping him close distance.

He does have good kicks he doesn't use them as often as you'd like. But when he does...

 

[Bobby Lupo]

I think guys that have good technical boxing do better because they learn the defensive side also. I'm thinking of Anderson Silva and Max Holloway right now. Building a good probing jab like GSP, Rory and Max have is a great way to set up your power shots.

I was thinking of the amount of time an average fighter would have to put in to become proficient at defensive boxing would be massive, and it seems that with all the other aspects of MMA training, it might be a misallocated resource.

Anderson spent a lifetime hard sparring until he put his elusive timing-based defense on display in his early 30s. And 99.9% of MMA fighters aren't working with reflexes and motion like his.

Stipe's boxing offense is his best defense. He trained as a boxer, and he still doesn't move his head or use much in the way of slips and footwork on defense, instead, he throws a darting jab and a hard straight right.

All of Conor's flashy shit is a setup for the left straight or the right lead uppercut. His defense is completely attribute based (although it's completely against SBG philosophy and teaching); Conor either gets punched in the face, or uses his reflexes to slip. When he felt pressure from Nate, he was just able to walk/run away from the fire, and it worked. Instead of countless hours training complex defensive schemes, he got the fuck out of there and reset. Nate's another one who has worked with a boxing trainer forever, and he still blocks punches with his face.

Defensive boxing might take too long to pick up for an MMA fighter. They have 50 other things to worry about.

 

[GSPTrainingInAPool]

Same could be said for any 1-dimensional fighter. It's MMA, not grappling, not boxing, not kickboxing. The fighter must be able to utilize all the tools available to them effectively.

To your point where Tito & Brock switched their style is interesting though. They were typically guys who took their opponent down and pounded on them as Frank Mir said about Brock "like an annoying sister" or something like that. It could be that Brock & Tito just got tired of the same game plan and wanted to try and stand & bang. Therefore needing to be a little more defensive.

There are very few boxers who successfully make the transition though. But why would they want to attempt it? not like they'll make more money in MMA vs Boxing.

Most other martial arts cross over better than boxing anyway because there's basically no rules to how you engage combat in MMA.

 

[jimmy boogaloo]

mma boxing is the same as jiu-jitsu. when you start there are rigid rules. when you get better, the rules change. when you get to black belt level, there are no rules anymore. just options.

 

[Ted Williams' head]

Well first off, this is pretty silly because I think you'd be hard pressed to find a top level MMA fighter who hasn't done/doesn't do straight boxing training and learned proper technical boxing.

Boxing is like any art - some of it is applicable to MMA and some of it isn't. The art of boxing has evolved according to the rules of boxing - the techniques and philosophies did not account for take downs, kicks, etc. You can't stand in the pocket and roll shots like Floyd or Toney because there is no "pocket".

But to say it does more harm than good is just silly. Is there a danger of guys falling too in love with boxing and neglecting other parts of their training? Sure, but that goes with any other art. At the end of the day, fists are always going to be the most effective striking weapons in MMA. They cause or lead to the vast majority of all KO/TKO's. The more you develop your hands, the more dangerous you are going to be.

MMA striking can evolve all it wants but there are basic fundamental technical boxing skills that will always be effective.

 

[Howard Moon]

The only thing I have to add is that so much of boxing is based on footwork that doesn't work as well in MMA, due to the need to defend takedowns.
It's similar to wrestlers hating to have their backs on the mat when they start grappling. It's a learned obstacle that has to be overcome.

 

[Onetrickpony]

Interesting thoughts. Articulated well what I was thinking for a while now, boxing(especially defensive boxing) is sabotaging people's performance. I do think a lot of people could benefit from training and employing a jab, simple techniques)

I agree that a solid jab can be a great tool in mma. GSP is a perfect example of this. He used his lunging jab not only to fuck people up (as he did to Koscheck) but to keep people guessing when the take downs were coming.

 

[aghof]

 

[Bobby Lupo]

Well first off, this is pretty silly because I think you'd be hard pressed to find a top level MMA fighter who hasn't done/doesn't do straight boxing training and learned proper technical boxing.

Boxing is like any art - some of it is applicable to MMA and some of it isn't. The art of boxing has evolved according to the rules of boxing - the techniques and philosophies did not account for take downs, kicks, etc. You can't stand in the pocket and roll shots like Floyd or Toney because there is no "pocket".

But to say it does more harm than good is just silly. Is there a danger of guys falling too in love with boxing and neglecting other parts of their training? Sure, but that goes with any other art. At the end of the day, fists are always going to be the most effective striking weapons in MMA. They cause or lead to the vast majority of all KO/TKO's. The more you develop your hands, the more dangerous you are going to be.

MMA striking can evolve all it wants but there are basic fundamental technical boxing skills that will always be effective.

I think your first assumption that the vast majority of MMA fighters do legit straight boxing training is completely wrong. Only a tiny fraction of professional MMA fighters check their egos and go to a real boxing gym and work with a real boxing trainer. GSP became great because of his willingness to be the worst guy in the room. He'd go to Wildcard for boxing, Renzo's for BJJ, to a wrestling club to wrestle with former Russian internationals, practice Muay Thai at the Wat. So few guys actually do that, or anything like it. I think Roy Nelson drops in at the Mayweather Boxing Club, and that's the closest thing to a current MMA fighter boxing at a legit gym.

Cody has very good MMA striking and was supposedly an ammy champ, but he's listed as winning the 'ABA Junior boxing championship' in 07,08, but the ABA is an English ammy organization. The American ABA is a fledgling pro boxer's union. So, what's the story there? But Cody has in his adult life sparred with boxers, including the best in the world: Vasyl Lomochenko. Cody's boxing is suited to MMA more than straight boxing. His squared stance and upright head are things you don't see in boxing, but are common in MMA striking.

So much is made about Conor's ammy boxing background: he trained at Crumlin Boxing when he was a teenager, because MMA fighters lack that kind of thing. And nobody knows, or is willing to say, if Conor's boxing background is any more legit that Dana's. No record of either competing as boxers (outside of the Floyd fight) even exists. And Conor's trainers for the Floyd fight were a TKD guy and a BJJ BB/MMA fighter. He didn't even have a boxing trainer in his training camp for the second biggest boxing match of all time.

ATT used to have Howard Davis, a Olympic Gold Medalist heading up their boxing training. And IIRC, Stipe, Stephan Bonnar, and Sean Gannon won the Golden Gloves in major cities.

BJJ instructors holding pads for fighters isn't boxing training.

There are plenty of MMA fighter who have good hands without a boxing background, but that's not what I was talking about.

 

[Bobby Lupo]

His natural instincts were fucking savage. The worst mistake he made was trying to learn to properly box. Brock falling in love with BJJ was another mistake in retrospect: he took Cain down twice, early in the fight, and tried to pass instead of maintaining heavy top control like he did with Mir, and Cain was able to slip out because of his experience.

 

[aghof]

I think your first assumption that the vast majority of MMA fighters do legit straight boxing training is completely wrong. Only a tiny fraction of professional MMA fighters check their egos and go to a real boxing gym and work with a real boxing trainer. GSP became great because of his willingness to be the worst guy in the room. He'd go to Wildcard for boxing, Renzo's for BJJ, to a wrestling club to wrestle with former Russian internationals, practice Muay Thai at the Wat. So few guys actually do that, or anything like it. I think Roy Nelson drops in at the Mayweather Boxing Club, and that's the closest thing to a current MMA fighter boxing at a legit gym.

Cody has very good MMA striking and was supposedly an ammy champ, but he's listed as winning the 'ABA Junior boxing championship' in 07,08, but the ABA is an English ammy organization. The American ABA is a fledgling pro boxer's union. So, what's the story there? But Cody has in his adult life sparred with boxers, including the best in the world: Vasyl Lomochenko. Cody's boxing is suited to MMA more than straight boxing. His squared stance and upright head are things you don't see in boxing, but are common in MMA striking.

So much is made about Conor's ammy boxing background: he trained at Crumlin Boxing when he was a teenager, because MMA fighters lack that kind of thing. And nobody knows, or is willing to say, if Conor's boxing background is any more legit that Dana's. No record of either competing as boxers (outside of the Floyd fight) even exists. And Conor's trainers for the Floyd fight were a TKD guy and a BJJ BB/MMA fighter. He didn't even have a boxing trainer in his training camp for the second biggest boxing match of all time.

ATT used to have Howard Davis, a Olympic Gold Medalist heading up their boxing training. And IIRC, Stipe, Stephan Bonnar, and Sean Gannon won the Golden Gloves in major cities.

BJJ instructors holding pads for fighters isn't boxing training.

There are plenty of MMA fighter who have good hands without a boxing background, but that's not what I was talking about.

in one of the promo videos leading up to a Conor fight (maybe Mendes?) there was a brief shot of a modest trophy that said something like "Conor McGregor, Dublin Novice Boys' Boxing Champion". More than Dana can show, anyway!