IMG/GIF The Only American UFC Champ

[member 3289]

is a New Yorker who claims Jamaica and won his belt via DQ.

And yeah I know we can kind of claim Usman because we taught him how to fight, but by that logic we can claim almost every UFC fighter.

Thoughts?

 

[ShatsBassoon]

Ray Longo has bigger titties than PVZ

 

[HEATH VON DOOM]

We dont claim New Yawk

 

[HEATH VON DOOM]

And until he gets beat Jon Jones will always be the champ.

 

[SongExotic2]

Bisping lives in California.

 

[member 3289]

125 - Brazil
135 - New York
145 - Australia
155 - Vacant (was Russia)
170 - Nigeria
185 - Nigeria
205 - Poland
265 - Cameroon

WMMA:

115 - China
125 - Kyrgyzstan
135/145 - Brazil

 

[member 3289]

Chandler finna beat Aloe Vera but then lose the belt to Conor

 

[Sheepdog]

is a New Yorker who claims Jamaica and won his belt via DQ.

And yeah I know we can kind of claim Usman because we taught him how to fight, but by that logic we can claim almost every UFC fighter.

Thoughts?

So obviously this is a bit of an anomaly considering how many Yanks are floating around near the top but one notable historical weakness in the US when it comes to MMA fundamentals is that it has actually always kind of sucked shit at kickboxing/muay thai (yes, there are notable exceptions) particularly relative to its size, because boxing dominates so much.

Marty, Deiveson, Francis are US trained so we can forget about them.

So that leaves Volk, Izzy, Jan as the foreign trained champs. Either they have Muay Thai/Kickboxing backgrounds or come from kickboxing gyms or both and come from regions that are historically decent at it (Poland not particularly, but it's in that Euro bubble with a strong kickboxing culture).

So maybe there is a bit of underlying weakness in MMA standup training in the US that is being exposed as it never had a strong culture of it to begin with. The US strengths in wrestling, boxing and BJJ might have been hiding some pretty shitty kickboxing training and this has left a gap for foreigners to exploit as they've closed the gap on some of the things they've historically sucked at.

 

[Sex Chicken]

There are some really good Canadian prospects coming out of Windsor.

 

[SongExotic2]

There are some really good Canadian prospects coming out of Windsor.

 

[BeardOfKnowledge]

So obviously this is a bit of an anomaly considering how many Yanks are floating around near the top but one notable historical weakness in the US when it comes to MMA fundamentals is that it has actually always kind of sucked shit at kickboxing/muay thai (yes, there are notable exceptions) particularly relative to its size, because boxing dominates so much.

Marty, Deiveson, Francis are US trained so we can forget about them.

So that leaves Volk, Izzy, Jan as the foreign trained champs. Either they have Muay Thai/Kickboxing backgrounds or come from kickboxing gyms or both and come from regions that are historically decent at it (Poland not particularly, but it's in that Euro bubble with a strong kickboxing culture).

So maybe there is a bit of underlying weakness in MMA standup training in the US that is being exposed as it never had a strong culture of it to begin with. The US strengths in wrestling, boxing and BJJ might have been hiding some pretty shitty kickboxing training and this has left a gap for foreigners to exploit as they've closed the gap on some of the things they've historically sucked at.

It occurs to me it's likely that having 3 guys with belts who are kickboxers is an anomaly. Especially when you acknowledge that 2 of them are paper champions who would have gotten their brains beat in by the guys who vacated their respective titles. Of course we are talking about a sport where we all pretend that a fucking calf kick is some sort of indefensible technique.

 

[kneeblock]

So obviously this is a bit of an anomaly considering how many Yanks are floating around near the top but one notable historical weakness in the US when it comes to MMA fundamentals is that it has actually always kind of sucked shit at kickboxing/muay thai (yes, there are notable exceptions) particularly relative to its size, because boxing dominates so much.

Marty, Deiveson, Francis are US trained so we can forget about them.

So that leaves Volk, Izzy, Jan as the foreign trained champs. Either they have Muay Thai/Kickboxing backgrounds or come from kickboxing gyms or both and come from regions that are historically decent at it (Poland not particularly, but it's in that Euro bubble with a strong kickboxing culture).

So maybe there is a bit of underlying weakness in MMA standup training in the US that is being exposed as it never had a strong culture of it to begin with. The US strengths in wrestling, boxing and BJJ might have been hiding some pretty shitty kickboxing training and this has left a gap for foreigners to exploit as they've closed the gap on some of the things they've historically sucked at.

This kind of cultural take relies on a weird essentialism that's probably better explained by political economy. The only place that can really be said to have a strong connection to kickboxing that rises to the level of culture is Thailand. In other places such as Holland or other parts of Europe, there have been investments in the promotion of kickboxing events that were a bit more significant than the history of the sport in the US, but it's still not even in the top 10 most watched sport in any part of Europe, much less most participated in. In that sense, it's somewhat similar to wrestling in the US except wrestling is integrated into scholastic programs here that mean exposure at a relatively young age for a continuous period of time whereas kickboxing has no analogue outside Thailand. Further, even in the absence of kickboxing, there has been a predilection among some Americans to take up other striking arts from childhood and the ISKA types were doing full contact stuff, though the investment was drying up in the 90s right when NHB came on the scene to absorb any people looking to turn fighting into a career path. There were more connections here between striking arts success and Hollywood in the post Bruce Lee era than there were between professional sport. This isn't a cultural issue so much as a material issue. Further, MMA gyms in the US have imported many of their best trainers in disciplines like BJJ and kickboxing.

I'd say what this is indicative of rather than any cultural disposition is that MMA grew up as a truly global sport in a period of intensifying globalization. This means the idea of best fighter "in the world" holds a little bit more weight than it did in some other sports that are hyperlocal. It was really the consolidation of American, Brazilian, Russian and Japanese promotions under the relative monopoly of American companies like WME/Zuffa and Viacom that gave us this modern instantiation of MMA. Also, due to regulatory issues here in the US and financial woes, the UFC in particular was incentivized to expand around the globe to build market share, relying heavily on media deals to keep the company alive at various points and thus investing in building pipelines for non-US talent to develop. In the US, the main gyms that grew to feed fighters to the top promotions remained wrestling or BJJ based (usually with some form of a striking trainer on staff in an attempt at hybridity) because those styles had more established roots in the earlier version of the sport and in some cases more formal ties to the investors that allowed the UFC to continue doing business e.g. Flash Entertainment, USADA, the Kingdom of Bahrain, etc.

Tl/dr: as you allude to, it's the gyms and individuals, not the traditions, but it's also the history of the sport's development and where/how money was invested.

 

[Sheepdog]

This kind of cultural take relies on a weird essentialism that's probably better explained by political economy. The only place that can really be said to have a strong connection to kickboxing that rises to the level of culture is Thailand. In other places such as Holland or other parts of Europe, there have been investments in the promotion of kickboxing events that were a bit more significant than the history of the sport in the US, but it's still not even in the top 10 most watched sport in any part of Europe, much less most participated in. In that sense, it's somewhat similar to wrestling in the US except wrestling is integrated into scholastic programs here that mean exposure at a relatively young age for a continuous period of time whereas kickboxing has no analogue outside Thailand. Further, even in the absence of kickboxing, there has been a predilection among some Americans to take up other striking arts from childhood and the ISKA types were doing full contact stuff, though the investment was drying up in the 90s right when NHB came on the scene to absorb any people looking to turn fighting into a career path. There were more connections here between striking arts success and Hollywood in the post Bruce Lee era than there were between professional sport. This isn't a cultural issue so much as a material issue. Further, MMA gyms in the US have imported many of their best trainers in disciplines like BJJ and kickboxing.

I'd say what this is indicative of rather than any cultural disposition is that MMA grew up as a truly global sport in a period of intensifying globalization. This means the idea of best fighter "in the world" holds a little bit more weight than it did in some other sports that are hyperlocal. It was really the consolidation of American, Brazilian, Russian and Japanese promotions under the relative monopoly of American companies like WME/Zuffa and Viacom that gave us this modern instantiation of MMA. Also, due to regulatory issues here in the US and financial woes, the UFC in particular was incentivized to expand around the globe to build market share, relying heavily on media deals to keep the company alive at various points and thus investing in building pipelines for non-US talent to develop. In the US, the main gyms that grew to feed fighters to the top promotions remained wrestling or BJJ based (usually with some form of a striking trainer on staff in an attempt at hybridity) because those styles had more established roots in the earlier version of the sport and in some cases more formal ties to the investors that allowed the UFC to continue doing business e.g. Flash Entertainment, USADA, the Kingdom of Bahrain, etc.

Tl/dr: as you allude to, it's the gyms and individuals, not the traditions, but it's also the history of the sport's development and where/how money was invested.

A lot of this is true.

But that the UFC has expanded globally and this is why other countries have caught up goes without saying. But I am talking the superficial reasons for the shift on top of this foundational shift.

Whether or not kickboxing or muay thai is integrated into the mainstream is not really relevant, what matters is the relative popularity and the related strength of fighters.

Is kickboxing mainstream in Europe amd Australia/New Zealand? No. Is it relatively more popular than the US? Yes. Have these regions in recent decades produced better kickboxers than the US? Yes.

The fact is, UFC champions are largely reflective of geographic specializations in the different fundamentals. The main anomaly is that American MMA strikers have dominated the UFC far beyond the underlying regional specialization.

Only several years ago there were essentially no Australian/Kiwi (based) fighters of genuine UFC calibre. Now the two best MWs are trained there in different camps. And you could go 'ah, yes, but this is just reflective of the growth of MMA there', and of course this is true. But they aren't randomly a Khabib clone and a Werdum clone, are they? They are non-boxing strikers, because this is the relative regional specialization.

The US will remain dominant but has no glaring advantage in any specialization. It has good BJJ, but not as good as Brazil. It has good wrestling, but not as good as Russia. It has great boxing, but great boxers box. And it has mediocre kickboxing and that's where the smaller fish are starting to quickly take bites out of the big fish.

 

[kneeblock]

A lot of this is true.

But that the UFC has expanded globally and this is why other countries have caught up goes without saying. But I am talking the superficial reasons for the shift on top of this foundational shift.

Whether or not kickboxing or muay thai is integrated into the mainstream is not really relevant, what matters is the relative popularity and the related strength of fighters.

Is kickboxing mainstream in Europe amd Australia/New Zealand? No. Is it relatively more popular than the US? Yes. Have these regions in recent decades produced better kickboxers than the US? Yes.

The fact is, UFC champions are largely reflective of geographic specializations in the different fundamentals. The main anomaly is that American MMA strikers have dominated the UFC far beyond the underlying regional specialization.

Only several years ago there were essentially no Australian/Kiwi (based) fighters of genuine UFC calibre. Now the two best MWs are trained there in different camps. And you could go 'ah, yes, but this is just reflective of the growth of MMA there', and of course this is true. But they aren't randomly a Khabib clone and a Werdum clone, are they? They are non-boxing strikers, because this is the relative regional specialization.

The US will remain dominant but has no glaring advantage in any specialization. It has good BJJ, but not as good as Brazil. It has good wrestling, but not as good as Russia. It has great boxing, but great boxers box. And it has mediocre kickboxing and that's where the smaller fish are starting to quickly take bites out of the big fish.

Again, seeing MMA within the narrow confines of the nation state is just wrong headed. It would have made sense if we were talking about UFC 1-20, but in the modern age, especially with large purses and regional regulation of MMA, wedding a fighter's competencies to their nation of origin makes no sense. Further, it's biased by the low sample size of champions. If your cultural/national thesis held water, then we would expect a whole slew of New Zealanders choosing MMA, when we really only have a handful. Further, to take your kickboxing example, Semmy Schilt is one of the greatest kickboxers to ever live on paper, but his MMA success was a mixed bag after he moved on from slapping in Pancrase. Holland has also produced very few MMA fighters who won championships with their supposedly elite striking tradition. Reem had his roided up moment and Rutten accomplished the same feats as Semmy plus a little more back in the dark ages. Going by your argument, the Netherlands should be doing a lot better.

There are certainly traditions that rise to the level of being stylistic modifications, i.e. Brazilian jiu jitsu and Dutch kickboxing, but they're certainly not indicative of culture, just financial investment in the growth of those sports in those regions following particular individuals networking with the right people.

The US dominance of MMA to date has really only been a reflection of the wealth in this country and the ability to build big money camps as the sport has modernized. As money moves around the globe in a fairly unrestricted way, the need to locate MMA gyms and camps in the US is decreasing. A fighter can put together a camp with a few sponsors and marginally better show money in ways they couldn't previously because it's more likely the sponsor will see a return on their investment either via media exposure or on the betting lines. In my view, the only reason there continue to be a surplus of US based fighters is because the top paying promotions remain anchored to the US, but as has been widely rehearsed in a thousand arguments, the US also has a number of other pathways to making a career in sports that every year dissuade people from doing MMA. In developing nations there are plenty of people still hungry for success by any means necessary if not outright hungry who have plenty of motivation to outwork the competition. It's just a matter of getting training and a camp, which hopefully we'll see more of in the years to come.

 

[SongExotic2]

Jake Paul will be America's next champion. And a good role model for you all.

 

[SongExotic2]

Actually you guys got poirier and gaetche. I expect one of them will wear the belt soon.

That Chinese gal is gonna knock fuck outta rose. So Ur fucked there.

Don't know about rest of women's divisions, let's face it Thier crap anyway.

Maybe UFC can re-sign mighty mouse?

Aljo isn't gonna hold that belt.

Dunno about Ortega at 145. Never trust a Mexican called Brian I say.


Already discussed lw.

170 you got Colby. That's it.

185 Ur fucked.

205. Ur fucked.

265. Jon Jones. He is the true champion and representative of the American dream.

 

[member 1013]

Lol @kneeblock and @Maycee Barber Fan you fucking nerds

 

[member 3289]

There are some really good Canadian prospects coming out of Windsor.

Name them.

 

[Sex Chicken]

Name them.

You wouldn’t know them.

 

[Dick Niaz]

Interesting topic but the current state is atypical. Many of today’s champions didn’t beat a reigning champ and multiple divisions need a sorting of top contenders or at least a current champ to defend to solidify their championship.

-Figueiredo at 125 (Henry vacated)
-Sterling at 135 (TJ vacated)
-No Champ at 155 (Khabib vacated),
-Jan at 205 (Jones vacated. Izzy was a good defense but one could argue Jan hasn’t defended against a LHW yet)
-Valentina at 125 (Montano was stripped and Shevchenko beat JJ for the vacant belt)

 

[SongExotic2]

Interesting topic but the current state is atypical. Many of today’s champions didn’t beat a reigning champ and multiple divisions need a sorting of top contenders or at least a current champ to defend to solidify their championship.

-Figueiredo at 125 (Henry vacated)
-Sterling at 135 (TJ vacated)
-No Champ at 155 (Khabib vacated),
-Jan at 205 (Jones vacated. Izzy was a good defense but one could argue Jan hasn’t defended against a LHW yet)
-Valentina at 125 (Montano was stripped and Shevchenko beat JJ for the vacant belt)

Dillasnake vacated?

 

[SongExotic2]

 

[SongExotic2]

^ that a good one to say to birdwatcher when he starts threatening to pink ya.

 

[Sheepdog]

Lol @kneeblock and @Maycee Barber Fan you fucking nerds

In my defence, I was just trying to low-key hang shit on cunts like Ray Longo, Duke Roufus and Bang Ludwig but disguise it by pretending I had actually thought through a real argument.

Things only got out of hand when people actually wanted me to justify the argument.

 

[steroid to heaven]

so many foreign champs
they say usada isnt as strict outside of america