IMG/GIF Hands Up or Down? The Wonderboy-Karate Answer...

[KataKing]

We see from time to time, MMA competitors getting KO'd from a shot to their head, because their hands are not held up protecting the head area. There is no barrier in-place to prevent a blow directly coming in & impacting the head. See Illustration from UFC Fight Night Ottawa, below.

MMA Pundits, Coaches, Commentators point out this practice as a weakness in Wonderboy's sport karate-based MMA striking style. This also begs the question of why Wonderboy, despite the "Hands Down" approach, has rolled over his competition on his way to the upcoming title shot against Tyron Woodley?

Well, the Hands Up Guard makes sense and it there in boxing, sport-based fighting styles, including Kyokushin karate kumite form, for a sound & long standing reason. Intuitively obvious one, I might add. But let's open with two or so short YT vids demonstrating the karate-like dynamic on why the Hands Up Guard as the best solution to protecting one's head, is a myth.

Here's a sampling of Karate match KOs.
#1: "Kung fu vs. Karate"

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-eOKn8gpM4

#2 "Kyokushin Beginner vs. Master"
View:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxITb8O8riY


In #1 the "Karate" opponent gets KO'd by a side kick to the head. In #2, the "Master" karate opponent gets ko'd by a spinning hook kick to the head by the "Beginner." Both techniques are expertly executed.

Note that Kyokushin prides itself on being an a street smart karate style... adapted specifically for actual fighting situations. Does not help the opponent in Vid #2 one bit. We see a similar sport fighting-type guard by the karate competitor in Vid #1. Nonetheless, the Kung fu stylist's side kick sails right through. The "Hands up" guard employed by both TKO'd opponents in these vids was to absolutely no avail. So what's going on?

Let's add 1 more for now. I'm having trouble finding karate punch ko gifs. I wanted to get some Japanese, say JKA versions. But here's a good stand-in, actually an MMA match, Johny Hendricks' stunningly competent KO of karate-kickboxing stylist (just like Wonderboy), Martin Kampmann.
GIF #1: Hendricks Power KOs Kampmann....

When we view this video, we see why the Hendricks / Wonderboy pick was problematic. Hendricks was not without striking success, and he had his excellent wrestling credentials on top of that. Anyhow, that's 1 got right... and took tons of flack for showing up the MMA Pundits. I got Rousey / Holm wrong... but was vindicated by Holm / Tate. And so it goes....

There's some interesting & competent commentary on Hendrick's maneuver out there... so I'll (try to) be brief. Hendricks temporarily opens the static hands up guard so popular among some sport karate fighters.. with that cross-parry move. That isn't the real problem though. The real problem is Kampmann himself.... he can't do the karate he's trained to get black-belts in. Basically, Kampmann reacts by trying to re-establish the hands up guard... but Hendricks just strikes right through the gap. What Kampmann should have done is "shelled up," I guess by kickboxing,,, MMA,,, whatever sport method he believes in.

While the hands up guard works... and is conventional boxing, MMA striking lore... it is plagued by being passive... or too passive. There is always a gap somewhere.... Now think back to my 1st Thread, the ever-unpopular Karate 1-Step Sparring Thread. The LAST thing the karate tradition principles say to do in my thread is do what Kampmann does here. Yes that's right, the LAST thing. Moral is, just 'cause you have colored belts & karate trophies only means you defeated equally deficient sport karate players like yourself.

Hendricks's does a great job here of out-striking a 1-dimensional sport karate fighter who moved to MMA. Martin Kampmann has great MMA credentials & was head striking coach for TAM. So not a lightweight on MMA standards by any means.

Now fast forward to UFC Fight Night 82. Round = 1. Time = 1:42. Johny's the one in the proverbial hot seat. Johny's been beat up pretty good. So as to temper my comment. Johny makes a couple of futile attempts to use the hands up guard approach, including shelling... to no avail absolutely. Which really highlights that the hands up guard is patently unreliable as a striking defense.
VID #3: Wonderboy Finishes Hendricks....

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oATBgsLmTzQ

IN CONCLUSION. We see in the last 2 videos (Gif#1, Vid #3), an MMA striker (Hendricks) take out by power punch a vaunted karate-kickboxer (Kampmann); and then, a karate-kickboxer (Wonderbody) methodically demolish an MMA striker (Hendricks), both losers employing the hands up guard.
We haven't proven Wonderboy's hands down-NO GUARD is the way to go (but a very important part of the answer lies in my opening karate-kick KO vids)... and since I would be closing almost all MMA gyms... hey MMA Forum readers, "stick" with that hands up guard.... MORE TO COME.

 

[KataKing]

Took a short troll around... one of the enduring themes we see is the routine criticism by MMA, Boxers, Muay Thai, etc. of traditional martial arts, especially Wing Chun. Wing Chun uses a form of traditional martial art guard... just like the guard, IN PRINCIPLE, shown in my GOOD VERSION VIDEO OF 1 STEP SPARRING (THE 1-STEP SPARRING KARATE THREAD DEBUNKING "DISTANCING").

There are issues & drawbacks with traditional martial styles, including the Japanese-like karate I practice... OTOH, there are principled reasons for the traditional martial arts guard. And guess what? The critics of traditional martial arts can't do the guard called for. So they switch to Johny Hendricks / Martin Kampmann kickboxing & MMA mode. The Hands Up Guard. Oh well. Now Wonderboy frequently really doesn't use any guard. He roams around with his hands hanging down. But since my preliminary conclusion is that the Hands Up Guard is patently unreliable... against strong strikers.... Wonderboy roaming around with this hands down isn't nearly as stupid as MMA observers / pundits, boxing coaches, etc. claim. In fact, it's pretty smart karate tradition-wise. Do I drop my hands like Wonderboy.... no, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool traditionalist. Am I concerned about Wonderboy's hands down so often? Sure. But here's a little bit, again put in MMA language.

Wonderboy's "distancing game." Not really "distancing" by traditional principles of karate... but OK for MMA understanding. Since Wonderboy typically posts outside of ready striking distance much of the time... there is no imminent threat of him being hit. No realistic chance to immediately strike Wonderboy when he puts all that "distance" between you and him. So no "hands up" guard (unreliable as it is) needed. The failing is relying on distance alone... which we really see come up short with Lyoto Machida in trying to extend his Era. Traditional karate is not about keeping a big distance between you & the opponent. Not at all. The large distancing is a convention that developed among sport karate competitors who then many unthinkingly took this distancing concept to extremes of seemingly safe practice -- fine until that inevitably doesn't work. Which is a point made explicit in my first 2 Karate KO videos. Heavy, excessive distancing is dumb karate.

MORE TO COME....

 

[KataKing]

OK, READY FOR MORE, BORING USELESS KIHON (BASIC) KARATE?

This Looks to be a Shotokan Karate Instructor. He's demo'ing the basic hand block & reverse punch combos.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2NegLBV3uc


Couple of important aspects of the demo to take note of:

1. Hip Rotation. Shotokan is very heavy on large body mechanics. See how the torso turns 90% from center on the block... then 90% back to center on the reverse punch. Forces, implements the hip into the technique. Strictly speaking, kihon technique should ideally be learned and mastered without the large torso / hip rotation... another topic.

2. 4 Block, Three Levels. 1 High Block for high defense, 2 Middle Blocks for middle defense, 1 Low Block for low defense. Each block is not a technique... it's represents a tactical zone. We don't just block in karate... we address zones of defense. Also, each block has numerous tactical objectives.. not just 1 as MMA thinks.

3. All Combos Have Reverse Punch. Shotokan loves the reverse punch. This also fits into the Shotokan convention of large body mechanics & engaging the hip actively in technique. Should you practice this and get bored with the reverse middle punch... try matching the punch level with the block level.... i.e., high block-high punch. Better mental training in doing that.

4. Chamber @ Hip. Generally, the blocks & punches are chambered (preparation for the strike) by placing, putting, retracting the hand-fist to the hip. This is because of the whole body strength objective...the principle. The 2nd basic tactical goal for karate technique is to engage the whole body into the technique with full body coordination enacting that. Whole body strength led by full body coordination. Reminder, we are also drawing upon the internal strength as well, not just body mechanics.

Note that on the outside middle block (I myself wrongly call it an inside block), the chambering arm is raised up above the ear & side of the head. This departure from the standard hip chambering is an alternative way to gather whole body strength... and leads into the principle of applied chambering... chambering not strictly from the hip principle.

5. Execute / Chamber-Ready. This a principle that MMA just doesn't get. We karateka are so stupid, plastering our opposite hand to our hip... just asking to get clocked... can't snap out in a quick jab, etc. When each block is executed, the opposite hand is retracted to the hip in CHAMBER. But that chamber is not just some ritualistic posture as boxing proponents would have you your think. IN reality.... that opposite chambered hand is now what,? READY TO GO WITH THAT REVERSE POWER PUNCH (Woodley, are you listening...?). In traditional karate... one technique includes the chamber which prepares then for the next. Wrapping in principles of (1) & (4). Multiple stuff going on in karate styles.... Tactical lesson is we karateka are, in principle, always prepared for the next technique. We are always placing ourselves in a state of chamber.... That includes Wonderboy, BTW.

6. The Progression in Speed. Karate tradition calls for slower practice pace. We want to make sure we understand the technical form. We need to learn the physical technical s precisely. We need to gather strength from the whole body, develop the whole body coordination required. Most importantly, we want to develop strong mental discipline in doing & guiding the technique. Karate Kihon is a mental skill at the end of the day... one of deliberation & control. So we go slow at first... being sure the body and mind are linked together consciously. We are not reacting.... we are acting....

People complain these kihon karate blocks are "too slow." Well see the final set which becomes pretty snappy. If your karate gets good... then you can effect these blocks in real time. Takes that mental discipline that Aldo had none of against MacGregor. The shock of that loss may propel Aldo out of the UFC. Well, karate isn't for the Jose Aldo's of the world.

 

[KataKing]

WHERE HAND'S DOWN COST MACHIDA HIS TITLE-ERA (OR DID IT?).

So can "hands-down" cost you a KO loss. A. By all appearances, YES. B. So can the "hands up" guard be used to save yourself from an aggressive striker. By all means, YES.

A. "Hands Down" Cost the Fight. Perhaps one of the greatest MMA style matches of all time is the UFC 113 Title fight rematch between Shogun Rua & Lyoto Machida. This bout, and rightly so, was touted as a contest between Rua's Muay Thai, which many including myself thought won in their first fight @ UFC 104, and Machida's Shotokan-based competition-kumite karate style. Well Lyoto didn't make it out of the 1st Round in the rematch.

B. "Hands Up" Defeats Karate Blitz. What's more, here's an instance during what I believe is the first match between Machida & Rua, where we see Shogun usins the Muay Thai the "hands-up" guard to stave off a punching blitz by Machida.

So I appear to contradict myself. Answer, not hardly by karate tradition that is... There's a lot more going on in these two excellent illustrations than "hands down," "hands up." To understand that is the whole purpose of my "1-Step Sparring / Debunking Karate Distancing" Thread.

To recap the above gifs, having your hands down & leaving you head area exposed can (be a factor in) cost you the fight. See Gif A. Gif B., keeping or putting your hands up can save you the exchange so that you can go one and win the fight. Just don't take these Hands-Down / Hands-Up case studies as absolutes when there are many, many intertwined principles in traditional karate kumite practice.

One of the fallout MMA practice standards from this match was the assumed or thought superiority of Muay Thai as a striking style for MMA, as well as the thinking of karate as limited for MMA.

 

[SCADA]

I think it's more about controlling the distance than hand placement. Either way I'm picking Wonderboy

 

[KataKing]

I think it's more about controlling the distance than hand placement. Either way I'm picking Wonderboy

\
By what we typically see either in MMA or sport karate... you are correct. I would say, "...relying on distance." There's often little actual control by "distance-oriented" fighters... It's often the least controlling one who loses... if you get what I'm after....

See my next vid below, which kinda proves what I'm getting @ half way & proves your position to a large degree was well....

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rYelxx0Txw

Andre Bertel is kinda of a karate phenom... it's hard to find short clips of karate punch KO's.

To take your supposition,,, examine Andre's hand placement. It's chambered. He fires off accurate, tactically intelligent, deliberately targeted strikes with full body strength & coordination. His opponent... a lower rank, does OK, actually the ref gives him the win... but it's not really discernible what precisely took place.

Andre is not controlling distance per se, by karate tradition. He's moving specifically & deliberately where he needs to be for effective technique. Karate, it's not about controlling the other opponent, the reactive way MMA analysts think or observe.

So you will see, if you become a student of what I am advocating... material similarity between Andre & Wonderboy. Wonderboy makes much more liberal use of "distance," which is the kickboxing / sport karate convention we see in him.....

Chambering strikes done true to principle takes on a quality that is very hard to stop. Chambering without the total package of principles then becomes an empty practice... and you end up like Machida did against Rua in the second bout. Very hard to illustrate all that here... that's why I did the long, original piece on 1-Step Sparring & Debunking Distancing. The physical form of what you are doing in karate is meaningless... it's the total package of principled karate that counts.

Acknowledging your point, buried in all my threads / commentary is the premise & conclusion that relying on "distancing," just keeping distance or creating distance is a losing game against skilled competition.

It will be very interesting to see how Woodley is able to compensate for Wonderboy's "distancing" as you put it. Woodley is very powerful & Wonderboy generally punches his opponent to death over time. That gives Woodley a punchers chance. Moreover... no one has really ground & pounded Wonderboy... with the exception of Matt Brown who went easy on WB IMO. Woodley has the potential to overpower Wonderboy on the ground game...

When weighing in for Wonderboy... don't forget my Rua vs. Machida gifs. Also Jones over Machida, Romero over Machida, and Rockhold over Machida. The sport karate model has plenty of slop in it, makes it vulnerable. Wonderboy's been looking very sharp... but his game isn't 100% sound. And Woodley is very strong physically... like most of the wins over Machida had a strength advantage....

Appreciate your comment... right on the MMA mark....

 

[1031]

It's about anticipating and picking your shots. Wonderboy should win. I'm picking Woodley.

 

[KataKing]

It's about anticipating and picking your shots. Wonderboy should win. I'm picking Woodley.

@blank

Everyone is picking Wonderboy.

 

[1031]

@blank

Everyone is picking Wonderboy.

I know, and everyone should be picking Wonderboy.

 

[KataKing]

WELL, I HARDLY GOT HALF-WAY THROUGH MY THREAD... AND MMA FORUM ANSWERED ALL THE QUESTIONS:

1. "Distancing is more important then hand placement." Not what MMA forums said prior to Wonderboy (Machida?).

2. "It's about anticipating and picking your shots." Hopefully. Great "corner-man lingo" that provides zero substance to the competitor in the Octagon.

Again, trolling around, I came across MMA commentary saying the way to make Wing Chun effective is "hard sparring (the proverbial)." You can go to a gym or get on YT and find MMA / sport trainers having all sorts of 1-liner (read 1-dimensional) answers. Although "hard sparring" is a legitimate way to train martial arts.... it's completely wrong in evaluating the strength or value of a traditional martial art system, including Wing Chun. My "stuff" isn't for selling seats or pay-for-view.

Here's a great example that speaks to the theory, by traditional karate principle, of "Hands Up" versus "Hands Down." I luv watching her performance of a kata introduced in the black-belt level Shotokan (and related styles) curriculum. Thought question: During the kata, are her hands UP,? or DOWN?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSUMlMwnPG8

INCIDENTALLY, I NEVER PERFORM KATA AS SONIA DOES IN THE SECOND, FULL SPEED, FULL POWER VERSION. I ONLY PRACTICE KATA @ THE RELAXED PACE... THOUGH NOT ALWAYS AS RELAXED.

INCIDENTALLY, SONIA IS A BRONZE MEDALIST IN THE 2012 WKF CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM KATA. HERE IS THE KARATE SKILL BASE THAT WILL DROP ROUSEY OR TATE IN ROUND 1. FYI.


In TERMS OF 1-LINERS, HERE'S A "GRAPPLER" WHO HAS THEM ALL WHEN IT COMES TO KNOWING ABOUT THE EFFECTIVENESS OF SHOTOKAN KARATE as what,? A FIGHTING STYLE. A TREMENDOUS RESOURCE HERE FOLKS.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpV3Novy1yM


I particular like section where he says if the school spends a lot of time on kata.... then that won't be effective for fighting. HUH? But if the dojo spends a lot of time on self-defense... then you will be effective for self-defense. REALLY?

This is too good to pass up. Global Grappler starts out by saying the question is "circular" because the questioner doesn't say what venue he's speaking about, like MMA, etc. Then GG goes on to gives circular, 1-dimensional answers such as the ones above.

 

[KataKing]

I SO TAKEN WITH SONIA & HER KARATE... I HAD TO FOLLOW UP ON "GRAPPLER TRAVELING ABROAD."

Shotokan karateka, the serious ones... tend to be kinda tough. So WMMA competitors... how does Sonia's "MMA Open Workout" grab ya?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAGgWe3MIsU


Sonia broke my heart using all those resistance bands. Not necessary... pushups, situps, jumping jacks, other long-established physical fitness calisthenics will do all the karate conditioning one needs. Sigh, Romance is over....

OOPPs. Almost forgot the thread, does Sonia's open workout have her hands up or down?

 

[KataKing]

STILL STRUGGLING FINDING GOOD KARATE STRIKE GIFs. HERE'S AN EXCELLENT SHOTOKAN TOURNAMENT VID.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQoLMIkbeBA


TIME = 3:22. My Fav is the woman karateka winner on the right. Stupendously superb, precision striking (with full body integration). Not all kinds of fancy footwork. No 'advanced' head movement or bob & weave. No nifty shoulder roll. Not some tricky feint. All replaced by polished, tactically correct mental discipline culminating in KIME. MMA strikers, try & beat that.... The other women competitor exchanges are good to excellent too.

Thought Question: Are her hands up or down?

 

[KataKing]

GRAPPLER GOING ABROAD... IS SHOTOKAN KARATE EFFECTIVE?

A. Karate = No Full Contact Strikes to Head. Below is another 1 of those awful 1-step sparring routines.... in this case TKD. Another of the series of complaints about how karate needs to be adapted to MMA.. involves the rule against head strikes... particularly in that popular full-contact karate style MMA'rs love to talk up, Kyokushinkai. In Kyo kumite, hand strikes to the head are prohibited. MMA proponents then claim that this is a large advantage boxing, etc. has over karate in that boxing emphasized actual contact to the head... while the full contact (Kyo) karate does not even train head strikes for kumite since it's against the rules.

B. TKD = Kicks (Fancy ones mostly). Well, more silliness from the full contact crowd. There's even more complaints about TKD being point fighting sissies who don't even use hand strikes in kumite (de ryun?); it's all about kicks and fancy ones @ that. None other than Joe Rogan, a TKD stylist and top sport TKD competitor & TKD instructor even say so himself.... The only way to get good @ full contact, actual fighting is to smash the opponent forcefully in actuality. Well, again more silliness from the pound-over-think crowd. So if you want to claim you know about karate... my requirement for the discussion is that you investigate the traditional karate curriculum. Then you might know, or begin to know what karate is.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3cW6l3SK2Y


What we see on the issue of (A) no head punching,,,, and (B) no emphasis or practical use of hands in TKD... that the applied kumite exercises of 1-Step Sparring STARTS OUT RIGHT AWAY WITH WHAT,?... HAND STRIKES.... AND HAND STRIKES TO THE HEAD. WOW!

Here's the deal with traditional karate.... If you want to be rough & tough with full contact strikes... and then turn off your brain about the discipline of karate that you actually studying.... I certainly won't stop you. If you want to train limited to an artificial rule set so you can put trophies on your shelf... then I can't stop you. What I can say then, is that you aren't doing karate. So the seminal decision in going into karate - GRAPPLER_GOING_ABROAD, isn't all the stuff about karate orgs, karate dojo's, singling out only part of curriculum, distinguishing between MMA & self defense.... and the rest of the 1-dimensionals.... IT'S WHETHER YOU ARE GOING TO STUDY KARATE OR SOMETHING ELSE... ARE YOU GOING TO EMBRACE THE TRADITIONAL CURRICULUM IN IT'S ENTIRELY.... OR PRESUME YOU & ROYCE GRACIE KNOW MORE THAN THE CENTURIES OF KARATE MASTERY?

KARATE 1ST &FOREMOST IS DISTINGUISHED BY MENTAL DISCIPLINE... AND THE TKD INSTRUCTOR MAKES THAT PLAIN HERE. HE'S A GREAT EXAMPLE. If you don't buy what he says... then trot over and sign up with Mike Winkeljohn... John Hackelman, etc.

C. Karate Kumite = 1-Strike & Stop. Here's another fallacy, although it's quite true that many sport karateka train for the 1 good hit rule only. Again, what does tradition train you, in principle? If you want to assume, presume that getting that 1 speed shot is all you need to do to prevail.. that will be accurate a certain percentage, often a large percentage of the time in formal competition. Again, that's not what the TKD curriculum trains. The TKD 1-Step Sparring White Belt Set STARTS with a single punch for what purpose... to instill principle 1st just as the instructor says. We get the principles of enacting a single counter punch precise in form... before we apply those principles to multiple punches. We form a solid foundation 1st in traditional karate.... then move up the progression.

In my karate style... the very first 1-Step has a single counter punch. In Shotokan karate, you will see an emphasis in Ippon Kumite of starting with single strikes... so as to master all the principles of strong karate strikes1st.... That's why I advocate Shotokan for MMA.... because it heavily emphasizes (over emphasizes IMO) each strike being done with authority... each strike will count for something... imperative in full contact. Shotokan karate practice, in reality, is expressly designed for aggressive, heavy physical contact. READ FULL CONTACT. in principle.

SO, what have I done here, besides torture MMA with more karate esoterica? I've dispelled 3 myths about traditional karate... perpetuated by the stupid & unthinking. Don't be stupid & do karate.... It won't work.

 

[KataKing]

POST #13. IN TKD WHITE BELT 1-STEP SPARRING SET 1. WHERE ARE THE HANDS? UP 0R DOWN?

Homework problem for Tyron & Duke. Due Nov. 12.

 

[KataKing]

WE JUST CAN'T GET TO THE BOTTOM OF "HANDS UP" vs. "HANDS DOWN...."

Karate is so hard really. People want to speak about karate as if they are the authority, they're all over youtube &social media. It's no wonder MMA is skeptical.

I like to use the Japanese Shotokan Kartate Masters to illustrate what karate is. Not that the Japanese have a lock on karate understanding. What the Japanese do know about karate, is that the Japanese take tradition seriously. They showcase some very serious study of the art. And Shotokan is a great style to learn about karate.... it's traditional foundations.

I'm going to put up a very short YT vid of a renowned Japanese karate master demonstrating that staple of Shotokan karate, the reverse punch. Thinking of carrying this vid & commentary onto a thread helping Wonderboy defeat The Woodley-Beast.

The vid features Master Kagawa.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG68G6mpkUc


A. The Karate Principle of "READY." Now I know what all the MMA-Critics of Karate are going to say before they say it. Just listen for a change. Start listening by viewing the end of the vid-clip 1st. After the final gyaku-zuki (that's Shotokan for "reverse punch"), notice M. Kagawa steps into a natural stance and crosses his arms until his hands rest in front of him dangling below his waist. TIME = 0:07-0:08. IOW, his hands are moved "down." A second before they weren't so "down." Technically speaking, Kagawa's hands aren't "down," they are in, returned to the karate "ready position." So MMA-boxer folks & coaches.... what have we learned? That hands down doesn't mean; "drop your hands and turn off brain." In karate, the hands down along with posture is in reality a "ready position," ready mentally (not some stupid, mindless ritual, nifty cultural phenomena). Karate is a mental discipline... not, "I'm pout-y Ronda badass...," "I KIL U." DOWN = READY.

This READY PRINCIPLE, is yet another principle of 1-Step Sparring... and all other parts of karate traditional training as well. Oh, so many principles in karate....

B. The Karate Guard. Remember Master Lazlo in the Board-Breaking vids I posted during the 1-Step Sparring Thread ("Debunking Distance")? Also scroll back to my wannabe-girlfriend, Sonia, in Posts #10 & 11. There are spots where both "Masters" have their left hand & arm extended out in front of their torso, in the same manner as M. Kagawa does @ the start of the reverse punch vid-clip. Well why do such "stuff." I mean, their hands aren't up protecting the head. RIGHT? Well non-karate believers... it's because we are seeing a conventional interpretation for training of the KARATE GUARD.

That's right,,, the outstretched right hand by Kagawa (he's striking with the left hand), accomplishes a couple of yes, principles of traditional karate kihon technique... plus introducing the concept of an active guard. The right hand out (open hand), is in a position to interfere, intercept, or otherwise block even fend or push away an incoming assault. But that is not the immediate focus of M. Kagawa's demonstration. The immediate focus is the two-fold karate objective, in principle, of (A) chambering, and (B) whole body strength. The Right Hand set this way... signifies the end of ROM for a prior technique, which then is the start of chambering for the subsequent use of that limb in a kihon karate technique. The arm extended this way forms the beginning for the bio-mechanical performance of the ensuing reverse, left punch. In addition, this motion is to aid & create the coordinated gathering of strength from the whole body and placing that strength into said reverse punch.

An internal; mental (&physical) process where M. Kagawa (you) are concentrating on the above physical process at every Milli-second throughout the process from start to finish. Culminating in KIME. Body mechanics are the outer-driver, the physical form of this you will be able to observe. The internal & external work together, the internal control the dominating. So no, to address another karate-critic myth, we are not "punching air" in proper practice of Kihon Karate -- or any other component either.... Lot's of intense processes going on. Lot's of intense mental work going on. THE MENTAL STATE IS NOW NOT ONLY READY... BUT "ON GUARD" AGAINST ATTACK. The mind is actively waiting... looking, searching for the opponent's attack.

The functional, self defense goal of the Gyaku Zuki exercise.... is to take that left fist and ram it into the opponent like a compact battering ram. As Master Lazlo begins to teach, break 1 board with targeted intent & precision, then go on to break 2,3,4, etc. Develop the capability to break (bruise, traumatize, damage) the opponent. Shoot that reverse punch out (BAM!) there via Sonia's "MMA Open Workout," over & over & over again. However, we are constantly returning to a position of guard... M. Kagawa placing that Right Arm out there synonymous-flowing after the conclusion of each strike.

BUT MMA says, M. Kagawa's left hand is held at the middle-front of his torso... still not protecting the head! And the opposite Left, punching hand is held way down @ the waist! OH MY LORDS SAKE! Karate-Answer: The Right "guard" arm retracts to chamber... the Left striking hand performs the reverse punch... then automatically reverses position with the Right Guard Hand shooting back out extended in front... the Right Striking Handing automatically re-chambers.... and the cycle of Right Guard / Left Reverse Punch continues. WE are prepared to move on an instants notice.... that's the principle. We are mentally "on-guard" to do what need's to be done... the objective here learn to guard, smash a mini-battering ram into the opponent then quickly resume your guard. Guard, Smash, Re-guard-poised to Re-Smash.

The principle of Guard-Right/ Chamber-Left; then Chamber-Right / Strike-Right. Incorporating & encompassing all the traditional karate principles I've described above... and many of those I introduced when running through the 1-step sparring karate kumite drills. Lot's to learn in karate, lot's to study, lot's to practice... lot's to refine... all performed under the guiding umbrella of mental discipline. Always end the technique, here the reverse punch with KIME; Kagawa emphasizing same on the last, reverse punch.

SO TO CONCLUDE, THE HANDS IN KARATE MAY BE "DOWN," BY BOXING, SPORT FIGHTING STANDARDS... BUT THEY DON'T STAY DOWN. THEY TRANSITION & MOVE from chamber & guard to technique, AND, back to guard & chamber READY for the next technique. Mentally, karateka should never be "down." When conflict arises, the mind should always shift to READY MODE.... THEN GUARD MODE as the danger approaches.... Then at the right moment, under the protection of the Guard, SMASH your opponent & immediately raise the defensive guard and prepare to SMASH again. Now MMA'rs, try & get good @ all this....

 

[KataKing]

"KARATE NEEDS TO BE ADAPTED TO MMA"

Should be a 'nother Thread. But let's make a point about the MMA "empiricism & iteration" argument that this is the correct philosophy for effective martial arts. IN the context of, "hands up or down?"

A fight which highlights this argument is none other that the Christiane CyBorg win over Lina Lansberg @ UFC FN 95. These YT HIghlight Clips make for fine case studies.... on how much good karate is screamingly suited for MMA. Here goes.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAuNAszOPLU

There are so many good points to be had about MMA vs. Karate, packed in this vid.

1. Time=Opening seconds of highlight, Hands Up: "Lina, how's that hands up guard working for ya?
2. Time = 0:06, TD Time. Lina, while you were shelling up, take-down exposure baby.
3. Time = 0:09, GNP'd. Lina, you're where grapplers don't want to be-on the receiving end of GNP. Why karate seeks to stay on feet. Don't go there. Cover & wait for ref to rescue you.
4. Time = 0:12-0:15, Hands Up Again. Saving you Lina (for what)? Knee > Ouch.
5. Time=Around 0:23-0:24, Bigger Beating. Striking defense has you on the fence.
6. Time=0:33-0:36, Guard:? BJJ Guard Theory, what happened to theory?

Here's Leslie Smith falling to Cyborg, Round 1 by TKO. Essentially a knockdown, then GNP into oblivion....

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TajF_d2J-FQ

Leslie's MMA Profile speaks highly of her.

1. Trains out of Cesar-Gracie Jiu Jitsu. Strikers cannot handle the Grappler closing the distance... or Leslie is it the other way around?
2. Noted for 'High-Volume Striking.' Is this the latest evolution of striking in MMA? Can karate keep up? I think @ UFC 198, Leslie became the victim of 'high-volume striking.' EDIT: I do see high-volume flailing....
3. Time = 0:14, "The Guard." Leslie, how's that guard working for you? Just 1 Time stamp on this one.
4. Noted for Aggressiveness. Towards other members of team. A 'badass.' OOOPs, Christiane the bigger-biggest badass.

How to beat Cyborg... you're not going to do it by pitting raw strength against raw strength. You're not going to do it by that old MMA staple of emotional aggression. The latest striking fad - "high volume punching..." no Cyborg will turn the tables on you there too. Gracie's BJJ eat all those early MMA competitors who outweighed them by 100 pounds or so... not happening here, Lina & Leslie can attest.

Try on this Japanese karateka female. No pouty, anger-managment faces to start with.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOrjmcveqrY

Hey, let's get real... Cyborg could physically run over Takahashi like a truck. But what about in Principle? I mean these super MMA gyms and their MMA training is getting clocks cleaned handily. What's the answer?

1. Dynamic Striking.
2. How about a fast & efficient, linear punch MMA claims doesn't work... right up the middle?
3. How about taking the strength of you entire body and putting it all into the strike....KIAI!!!... like our beloved Master Lazlo demonstrated in breaking boards?
4. How about tactically standing your ground, advancing & retreating with purpose & principle?
5. How about the rest of the 1-step lessons, like multiple, synchronized technique?
6. Ehr, Karate guard defense?
7. On 1. above, repeat 2. & 3. & 4. & 5. + 6. several times.

Cyborg is very strong & very tough, very aggressive. We karateka don't beat a Cyborg by attempting to outdo what she's doing. We out-think her. Karate is a mental discipline. Takahashi's performance, she's got it all down. And don't leave out Kata Bronze Medalist Sonia and her Grappler_Traveling_Abroad waste of time on "uck," kata. REALLY? Sonia's everything Rousey's not.... on Open Workout Alone....

 

[KataKing]

OK, HERE I AM, THE TKD INSTRUCTOR... IN THIS VID...

(NOT REALLY)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sva-1MAwaIQ


Here's two key ideas I want to (you to) get out of this video.

1. Chambering = "Intermediate" Position. The TKD Instructor says that chambering is placing your hands (limbs) in an intermediate position in performance [of one's technique].

I don't really look @ chamberings definition that way, because Ready to me is more of a state of mind, than position of hands, etc. But the TKD's definiton of, "...going to an intermediate position between initial position & final position;" is acceptable. THE KEY POINT IS THAT CHAMBER IN ACTION IS NOT, WHAT FOLKS,? NOT STATIC.

2. Chambering, Reason = "...is to "Increase to Power of Our Technique." This statement can also be considered a "goal" of chambering. Here, the TKD Instructor is coming off though,like Grappler_Traveling_Abroad, by stating a highly generalized maxim. Generating power in our karate technique is really an overall objective. Our guiding overall goal in traditional karate is to disable the opponent. Just remember that there are multiple, layered & intertwined principles that contribute, create the capability, to achieve the latter.

The proper, traditional technical reason for chambering, IMM, is that it physically forms the actual beginning & preparatory stage for performing traditional karate action, typically technique such as blocks spoken of here. And again the key takeaway is that there is /are important reasons (plural) for doing so. As opposed to, KEEP YOUR HANDS UP (protect your head-barrier), END OF STORY.

I think of the CHAMBERING process as 1,2; start-finish, prepare-execute. This is the mental discipline definition. We karateka are not just doing "moves." How about SUPER SAGE... what's he doing???

 

[KataKing]

SUPER SAGE DE-SUPER-ED....

MMA'rs think I'm down on MMA. Couldn't be more wrong. What I'm down on is people speaking of karate who don't know what karate is traditionally... which is the real karate. Add little to zero experience in really tapping into the traditional curriculum's meanings instead of reciting karate test stuff (or pounding mindlessly away like modern Kyokushin seen so often).

I luv this Barberena chap almost as much as I've fallen for Sophia the kata queen (figuratively speaking of course). He lacks her "brush tail," but makes up for that in sundry other ways.... Here's his post-fight Octagon interview...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJwmdCSjgV4

One thing Bryan hits on that couldn't more true in traditional martial arts, any martial art is that athletics doesn't carry the day against a tough, trained opponent. And that's a double nope. I mean come on, this guy has MMA written all over him... destroying Mr. Karate Trophy Boy. I luv it almost as I luv kata.... Can't wait to see a rematch.

Now Sage was ill, so we have to temper with that. Nonetheless, just taking the technical prowess Super displays proves AGAIN, that being able to punch & kick, add with fancy stuff is stupid martial arts. See vid below.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU5UrHjNnio


Of course the video proves also that Sage isn't anybody to write off. The stuff about throwing athletics, good punches or kicks, however, is bunk against the skilled, the determined. Wonderboy is going to have the same problem facing him. The UFC 205 fight is shaping up to be a SAGE-BARBERENA saga. I think Woodley is much more dangerous than the Wonderboy Hype-Train / Statisticians understand. That's my personal opinion.... The Barberena counter @ TIME = 0:47 SAYS IT ALL....

PS: My Post #12, the "kumite shotokan," vid. TIME = 2:18-2:24. Female competitors. Overall nice exchange. Stop @ TIME = 2:22. Absolutely perfect counter punch by Japanese competitor that instantaneously blasts charging-in opponent, now stopped dead-in-tracks, permanently. Here's how karate competitors would dispatch Barberena, not the SUPER SAGE good-punch & kick-opponent wilts-syndrome (NOT).

 

[Leigh]

Some nice analysis work, marred only by the incorrect use of the term "begging the question"

Hands up is certainly not fool proof. Far from it. It's not like just pressing the block button on a video game. Good defense also includes other aspects, as you have mentioned. Distance management, foot work and angles, head movement, parrying etc. But Muay Thai and K1 are the top striking arts because of the low level of technique restriction and most of those guys keep their hands up for a reason.

MMA striking is generally quite poor (as are most dimensions of MMA, due to the large skillset requirement of the sport) and guys like Wonderboy, Machida and Anderson Silva can make most of their opponents techniques look bad, whether they are valid or not.

 

[KataKing]

I moved your quotes around.

MMA striking is generally quite poor (as are most dimensions of MMA, due to the large skillset requirement of the sport) and guys like Wonderboy, Machida and Anderson Silva can make most of their opponents techniques look bad, whether they are valid or not.

The MMA demand for a 'broader' skill set is a factor. Looking @ building one's skill set around pure technique.

The larger factor, IMO, is the desire of competitors to fight. Fighting & winning a sport contest weigh over the investment in training. Strong evidence of this, for instance, is the heavy physical training Johny Hendricks did for Wonderboy. Martial skill is NOT meaningfully measured by just being physically stronger. In Johny's case, all that tire throwing & rolling didn't enable the cognitive ability to address Wonderboy just staying away from him during much of Johny's offense.

Some nice analysis work, marred only by the incorrect use of the term "begging the question"

I accept real-time edits... let me know the specifics of what should be changed, clarified....

Hands up is certainly not fool proof. Far from it. It's not like just pressing the block button on a video game. Good defense also includes other aspects, as you have mentioned. Distance management, foot work and angles, head movement, parrying etc.

Yes, you have re-affirmed the MMA-boxing, etc. system of defense. Watching the 2nd Holzken / Daniels fight, Daniels made many improvements on active striking defense... along the kickboxing, MMA lines which you spelled out. And it showed. Didn't work in the end, though.

The traditional karate reason Daniels lost the 2nd bout, according to my threads, is that he went the kickboxing route against the best. Holzken is the top, outstanding. You must be on your karate mark to beat a Holzken, which includes making zero mistakes, principally speaking.

But Muay Thai and K1 are the top striking arts because of the low level of technique restriction and most of those guys keep their hands up for a reason.

Joe Rogan just put up a YT / Podcast interviewing some outstanding Muay Thai stylists,,, and speaking about Wonderboy also. The one statement I wholly agree with was the statement that most MMA competitors don't begin to know what expert Muay Thai is. I watched some clips of the interviews on YT.... super impressive, the one super-deadly Muay Thai... through my karate eyes.

The low level of technique restriction of Muay Thai versus karate was brought up... and discredited to some extent by Rogan's Muay Thai guests. In conventional sport karate practice, however, your statement is true. Bigger, better answer is sport karate convention IS NOT, DOES NOT represent the traditional karate curriculum. So if you have a black-belt... you have no karate excuse, none for claiming 'technique' restrictions.

Moreover and more importantly, my philosophical style thrust is that karate tradition trains PRINCIPLES 1st. The traditional & conventional in karate styles, particularly the Korean versions,,, of high kicks represents the principle of training for the highest demand in technique... so accordingly the lower demands then become / then are easy & relatively effortless.... aka low kicks. The is the traditional karate principles of over-training with a purpose, one of developing the highest levels of technical capability.

It's silly to assume that a traditional karateka who is prohibited to kicking below the waist in class sparring for safety... then as a thinking, intelligent, trained person, can't or won't do so. Those who fail this test, however, are the sport minded fighters who only concern themselves with winning contests.... of which one of the Roufuses are expressly guilty of in a resounding loss against Muay Thai. So is Daniels in other ways. Karate is about principles, not "...the rule says this brain off forever." The overall applied goal of traditional karate is self-defense first (PERIOD)... not be-bopping point fighting reverse speed punch & nothing more....

My karate style curriculum has a specific self defense component to the curriculum which is not restricted to competition rules or rule set. This is true of kata as well. As I said... are you in karate class to beat people for gold by a rule set... or are you learning what the curriculum offers?

 

[Leigh]

I accept real-time edits... let me know the specifics of what should be changed, clarified....

Begging The Question is a type of logical fallacy that refers to a type of circular argument. It is a common misnomer. A better terminology would be "...raises the question..."

I don't want that to overshadow your interesting posts though.

I agree with a lot of what you say and I am not a great striker, being a mediocre MMA striker at best, so my opinion may not carry much weight. Regarding the technique restriction, I do disagree. A karateka who is restricted from using certain techniques in class may choose to use them in fights but if they do not practise them in sparring, they will lack the timing and experience to use them optimally.

 

[KataKing]

Begging The Question is a type of logical fallacy that refers to a type of circular argument. It is a common misnomer. A better terminology would be "...raises the question..."

\
Yeah, I 'misnomer-ed' it.

I don't want that to overshadow your interesting posts though.

Tnx.

I agree with a lot of what you say and I am not a great striker, being a mediocre MMA striker at best, so my opinion may not carry much weight.

Well, you're expressing your understanding, and looking to increase it. An interesting note from the Joe Rogan Muay Thai podcast was guest Muay thai specialist Kevin Ross reporting how Rich Franklin tapped into for striking coach and basically refused to listen. I feel MMA is typically the same way. Emphasis is on physical strength & athleticism. Machida wiped Franklin out handing Franklin his first defeat. Traditional karate is very involved, very intense to train properly.

Regarding the technique restriction, I do disagree. A karateka who is restricted from using certain techniques in class may choose to use them in fights but if they do not practise them in sparring, they will lack the timing and experience to use them optimally.

By MMA thinking and much of traditional karate, the formal competition realm as it is taught today... you are correct. However, kumite competitively as a formal part of the traditional karate curriculum was only added with the emphasis it has today by successors to Shotokan karate's founder. Notwithstanding the latter, the traditional karate model curriculum has kumite has 1 of the three major components, and I think this is wise for most practitioners.

Yet this raises the question of how karate tradition affords better striking, better martial skills.

In reality though, the real strength, the real power behind karate comes not from sparring, and developing real-time athletic skills, but from essentially solo & solo-assisted practice developing mental skills. The fact that sport fighters don't understand this is why my rendition of Tang Soo Do's beginner kata is ignored (another thread), when in fact it's the key to developing high-level mental discipline. I'll wager to say almost no one in MMA will buy that. Which is one major reason I can smash such a large percentage of the karateka I face... is that they don't train well to karate standards. They, like MMA, are caught up in the physicality. Karate in application is mental 1st, physical 2nd, although physical conditioning & learning the physical form is a necessary per-requisite.

The TKD 1st 1-Step Sparring routine in my Post #13 isn't only training how to physically punch. It's training the mental discipline to strike with all the qualities I talked about, apply the sum total package of karate principles all incorporated into the physical technique. The mental control over oneself to cause the body to do the proper technique, in the proper way, at the proper time, at the appropriate target using the resources of the entire body in a coordinated & precise manner, continuously if need be. Karate is always a mental discipline exercise, it's an internal mental process of activating the body with the correct selection of dynamics; that's the driver.

Does that muddy the water for you?

 

[KataKing]

Regarding the technique restriction, I do disagree. A karateka who is restricted from using certain techniques in class may choose to use them in fights but if they do not practise them in sparring, they will lack the timing and experience to use them optimally.

\
I'm kinda a karate purist. So let me have Sonia help again. We'll use the illustration of elbow strikes.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxSu6ZitTk8

Excellent "Brush Tail" on that girl.

Again, this is an intermediate level kata on the path to black-belt in the typical karate curriculum. Time = 0:41-0:48. We have a left & right (or vice versa) lateral elbow strike. The kata process IS NOT, a physical lesson on how to stand and recite an elbow strike. The kata process is developing the extreme control of getting one's entire body strength into an elbow striking with the complete intent to perform it in the manner prescribed by the kata. The prescription is the form of the exercise, the internal mental processes, thinking, the decisions, the contraction & expansion of the musculature, the stepping & turning, the intent of where exactly to strike all make up the drivers of mental discipline.

It's a FOUNDATIONAL mental skill set that enables me to walk into an unknown opponent & call upon that mental discipline to act faster in response than to which the opponent can react... in this case execute with a kind of elbow strike. It's not the opponent that's controlling my reactions... it's me controlling myself in action in response to the actions of the opponent. That's what kata does for karate at the highest level, and is the genius of the masters. So not only do I know elbow strike usage in karate... I have the mental discipline to call upon what I have learned, in principle... absent having witnessed the particular move my opponent takes. This same effect can be learned athletically alone... but it won't ever be as dynamic in an actual conflict... because I can always change my action in real time while the athlete is stuck reacting & will ultimately be either too slow or out of sync. Super Sage the later in his failing Round 2 moments against Barberena.

Look at Sonia's side kick demo lesson @ Time = 2:42. This isn't a lesson on how to hold one's leg out. It's developing the MENTAL DISCIPLINE to cause the body to execute that kick with the strength of the entire body behind it focused at the end of her foot... at head level height precisely where Sonia intends to place that kick. Should Tyron W., "The Chosen" rush Sonia, he might well boll her over with his body mass & momentum, but the precise execution of that kick by Sonia would probably drop him like McGregor did Aldo. In karate tradition we build up that mental skill by NOT SPARRING.

SONIA'S DYNAMIC VERSION.

I don't ever practice kata this way. She's a kata competitor. So she's going full speed & power, but the greater objective is mental discipline. Exacting Control.

The capability she demo's in the dynamic version is engendered by the slower, relaxed pace of practice. This is how mental strength and whole body strength & coordination are built & linked with the mind. The practice pace is what builds this reservoir of both physical & mental power. We then unleash this at full strength & pace in self defense or certain kumite. WMMA competitors should fear facing Sonia in the Octagon. I know I would. She is no fancy karate-pants pansy. And obviously in top physical shape.

EDIT: Starting to realize where those "timing" & "distancing" skills in karate hail from?

 

[KataKing]

Regarding the technique restriction, I do disagree. A karateka who is restricted from using certain techniques in class may choose to use them in fights but if they do not practise them in sparring, they will lack the timing and experience to use them optimally.

All that kata stuff is just too hard, for most karateka too. So here is a Shotokan version of how all this "ritualistic" 1-Step Sparring Mental Discipline translates into real time. Shotokan is very detailed in the curriculum and has all kinds of 1-Step Sparring-Kumite exercises, different variations & progressions. My karate style only has basic 1-Step Sparring. That's all I need myself.

In any event, look at how these highly accomplished Shotokan black-belts move so dynamically, with a blend of strength, agility and accuracy... sound somewhat like Wonderboy on his good days? It's a look a what all that dumb karate training by MMA standards can actually do for you. Tyron... you're in trouble against these experts.... no gold belt for you against these guys....

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BJatJtjzTA

BTW: THEIR HANDS ARE "DOWN," BUT DON'T STAY"DOWN."

EDIT: THESE GUYS REPRESENT THE EXACT OPPOSITE MENTAL SKILL OF THE CYBORG VICTIMS IN POST #16.

 

[Leigh]

I'llwager to say almost no one in MMA will buy that.

You are correct, at least with me. I don't buy that I have a TKD black belt, for what it's worth, and practising patterns was nowhere near as effective as learning correct Mauy Thai. My Thai Boxing coach showed me far more effective ways to strike. Technical details like using the clinch to set up the knees and foot placement and rotation when using elbow strikes is undeniably better learned from a coach than from kata. Without sparring/live drills, you can't hone your timing as well, learn to deal with pressure or highlight your weaker areas.

I agree that skills pay the bills and without technique, you're done. I also agree that many mma athletes focus too much on physical training. I understand why it happens - MMA is gruelling and you certainly need to be in good shape. However, having done years of heavy weight training and intense cardio sessions, I realise that there are better ways to get in shape that don't leave you a drained shell and that skill training is so much more important.