Can you explain why it was justifiable?
NSFW Officer shoots and kills unarmed victim
- Thread starter Wild
- Start date
From what it seems like at the moment, is that if they suspect you have a gun, and you aren't complying and have hands where they can't see them, then the police can shoot you. To me that is shocking. To not even have to see a weapon, let alone have it pointed at you, and they can shoot you.
That would not be justifiable IMHO. Maybe in the eyes of the law but not morally.
However, I'm wondering if
@Darqnezz can clarify.
Dude didn't deserve to die...fuck hypothetical situations...And laying there handcuffed gasping for air is justifiable too huh?...IDC what training you have this is BULLSHIT...I ask once again IF THIS WAS YOUR FAMILY COULD YOU JUSTIFY THIS..GTFOH its a joke...no amount of propaganda will allow me to say it was this kids fault..if we all got shot for the dumb shit we say say or react to then we're ALL DEAD..including the ppl defending this dumb shit...
- Jan 15, 2015
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did the cops know about his facebook comment at the time of the shooting, or is it like the robbery before the michael brown shooting, in which they had no clue?
What I want to know is, is it something in their training that makes certain cops feel lethally threatened, or is more psychological screening needed to weed out the rigid, wrathful types, or is it that profiling frames some men as both menacing and disposable, or that untreated mental illness, which affects both cops and civilians, is endemic and contributes to fatal miscommunication? Or is it some hideous fucking depressing tangle of all this and more besides that makes you want to quit Earth?
Jesus.
Jesus.
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Punch
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People need to stop killing other people. Cop, Soldier, Gang banger, Terrorist, Criminal, and anyone else. End of story.
What i don't understand is why didn't the Cop use a stun gun, beanbag gun or another nonlethal weapon? And if i was a cop and i absolutely had to shot someone it would be in the legs. Anyways the guy wasn't listening and he suffered the consequences. Cops these days don't fuck around.
IMHO there are 2 reasons where a cop is justified in shooting someone - they are in imminent danger or someone else is
1) person is a real threat. Doesn't even need to necessarily have a gun/weapon but must be a real threat of violence, such as advancing on the cop or has a weapon drawn and won't put it down.
2) person is doing the same thing to someone else OR has just committed a violent crime and is fleeing, therefore potentially being a danger to the public. I would consider someone in a vehicle but failing to stop to be in this category, as they are in control of a deadly weapon (a car) and using it wrecklessly.
I'm not trained in law enforcement, so I'm happy to be educated. There is no way I accept shooting a guy simply because he didn't listen or is fleeing for a nonviolent crime.
1) person is a real threat. Doesn't even need to necessarily have a gun/weapon but must be a real threat of violence, such as advancing on the cop or has a weapon drawn and won't put it down.
2) person is doing the same thing to someone else OR has just committed a violent crime and is fleeing, therefore potentially being a danger to the public. I would consider someone in a vehicle but failing to stop to be in this category, as they are in control of a deadly weapon (a car) and using it wrecklessly.
I'm not trained in law enforcement, so I'm happy to be educated. There is no way I accept shooting a guy simply because he didn't listen or is fleeing for a nonviolent crime.
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But not at all costs this is really sounding like SBC
Their cowards, that's the issue
View: https://youtu.be/01ZwvYqMRhQ
Takes your hands out. Take your hands out now
Takes hands out.... Gets shot
Police officers actions don't have to be right. Those actions must be justifiable under the "objective reasonableness standard". That standard is what a group of similarly trained & experienced officers would do in exact circumstances.
1. Police called to the scene of a group of guys with a gun.
2. Upon arrival one guy in the group walks away.
3. When told to stop that person reaches into his waistband.
4. Refuses to show his hands while being commanded at gunpoint.
5. Says no to the officers, then snatches his hands out in a quick gesture.
6. Gets shot.
A. Police don't have to see a weapon to use deadly force. If all the facts point to you a weapon, (the 911 call, walking away from the scene, refusal to follow commands, reaching into your pants, not showing hands to prove that you don't have a weapon), the YOU are responsible for the outcome.
B. It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
1. Police called to the scene of a group of guys with a gun.
2. Upon arrival one guy in the group walks away.
3. When told to stop that person reaches into his waistband.
4. Refuses to show his hands while being commanded at gunpoint.
5. Says no to the officers, then snatches his hands out in a quick gesture.
6. Gets shot.
A. Police don't have to see a weapon to use deadly force. If all the facts point to you a weapon, (the 911 call, walking away from the scene, refusal to follow commands, reaching into your pants, not showing hands to prove that you don't have a weapon), the YOU are responsible for the outcome.
B. It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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SBC?
Cops aren't trained to shoot at limbs. Like the military, they are trained to shoot center mass. If the guy wasn't a fucking idiot he would still be alive.
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The police force is a system put into place to protect good people and remove bad people from the population. While yes, you shouldn't give them reason to think you are one of the bad ones, the same can be said for the cops. Heinous crime is awful. Crooked cops commit heinous crime as well. It's not all one way or the other. There is merit in saying "Don't act like a criminal." There is also merit in saying "Some cops are just as bad as the criminals."
Being a cop does not impress me. I and many veterans like myself have had much more hazardous positions. They aren't automatically a badass. Being a violent criminal does not impress me. They are not automatically a badass.
People on this planet need to calm the fuck down. In North America we don't have problems like : Hey, the local warlord is in a bad mood, guess our village is all going to be beheaded today." So perhaps we need to reevaluate what is wrong with us as people that think it's ok to murder one another, "justified" or not. I think it would do a lot of people some good and give them perspective to go live in a place where you don't have the protection or rights that you have in their backyard. Maybe then we'd see that we don't have it so bad.
Being a cop does not impress me. I and many veterans like myself have had much more hazardous positions. They aren't automatically a badass. Being a violent criminal does not impress me. They are not automatically a badass.
People on this planet need to calm the fuck down. In North America we don't have problems like : Hey, the local warlord is in a bad mood, guess our village is all going to be beheaded today." So perhaps we need to reevaluate what is wrong with us as people that think it's ok to murder one another, "justified" or not. I think it would do a lot of people some good and give them perspective to go live in a place where you don't have the protection or rights that you have in their backyard. Maybe then we'd see that we don't have it so bad.
There are bad cops just like there are bad (insert profession). Most departments have rigorous vetting processes, which include psychological testing and polygraph, to weed out the bad apples. Even so some get through. The profession is an incredibly dangerous one. Being in danger for prolonged periods of time can cause adverse reactions in behavior. I'm not making excuses for bad behavior, but when you see the worst society has to offer (men raping women, people beating infants to death, drunk driving fatalities) it tends to color ones perspective.
I want to clarify: I don't hate cops. But straight up, they do frighten me; though I'm able to recognise that they don't pose much danger to a 5'2" 107 lb. white middle-class woman, I didn't grow up middle-class. I saw cops be a whole lot different to the men I knew, my broke-ass family and neighbours. Sometimes they deserved it, often not. I do think cops choose to solve civilian defiance with violence too often. I know this has to happen sometimes and appreciate that they'll show up prepared to crush if some rapist breaks my basement window. But from what I've seen cops do on the whole default to violence too quickly, and even faster if you're not white, if you're poor; if you're male; if you're a big male. I think the reasons for this are many, and little to do with "cops are evil." To some extent it's "adverse reactions," as you say, to an often traumatic and badly-paid job, I'm sure-- but then again, the vets I know go out of their way to avoid ugliness and conflict, and they've experienced heinous shit too (and are paid garbage) so how are they processing their trauma? I dunno.
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Gun laws in Utah
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Location of Utah in the United States
Gun laws in Utah regulate the sale, possession, and use of firearms andammunition in the state of Utah in the United States.[1][2][3]
Utah's firearm laws are some of the more permissive in the United States. Utah's firearms laws are intended to protect the second amendment rights of its law-abiding citizens, while at the same time ensuring the safety of the general public. A 2013 study ranked Utah the .[4] lowest among all 50 states in the category of gun control legislation. There is more liberty on firearm laws in Utah than in California, New Jersey, Connecticut, New York and several other States.
So a guy was reported to have a gun, which is LEGAL, and when he was thought to have had a gun(LEGAL), he was shot, and killed.
One time police were called because my Lab/Pitbull mix was loose. I had accidentally left the side gate of my backyard open.
Police were called, on a Saturday morning in my boxers I was at the side of my house calling my dog in and in the process of closing my fence when a cop had his gun pulled on me.
Really? Did this call about my dog require this heightened threat awareness? Hell no. And the fucking cop followed me into my house where my baby was breast feeding. Total violation of me and my rights.
What this cop did seems along the same lines with fatal outcome. What laws were being broke? If someone was waiving a gun, I can understand caution and the want to talk to someone, but to come at them like they're a gun wielding maniac ready to fire, this heightens the adrenaline and makes it easier to shoot rather than react more rationale to the situation.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Location of Utah in the United States
Gun laws in Utah regulate the sale, possession, and use of firearms andammunition in the state of Utah in the United States.[1][2][3]
Utah's firearm laws are some of the more permissive in the United States. Utah's firearms laws are intended to protect the second amendment rights of its law-abiding citizens, while at the same time ensuring the safety of the general public. A 2013 study ranked Utah the .[4] lowest among all 50 states in the category of gun control legislation. There is more liberty on firearm laws in Utah than in California, New Jersey, Connecticut, New York and several other States.
So a guy was reported to have a gun, which is LEGAL, and when he was thought to have had a gun(LEGAL), he was shot, and killed.
One time police were called because my Lab/Pitbull mix was loose. I had accidentally left the side gate of my backyard open.
Police were called, on a Saturday morning in my boxers I was at the side of my house calling my dog in and in the process of closing my fence when a cop had his gun pulled on me.
Really? Did this call about my dog require this heightened threat awareness? Hell no. And the fucking cop followed me into my house where my baby was breast feeding. Total violation of me and my rights.
What this cop did seems along the same lines with fatal outcome. What laws were being broke? If someone was waiving a gun, I can understand caution and the want to talk to someone, but to come at them like they're a gun wielding maniac ready to fire, this heightens the adrenaline and makes it easier to shoot rather than react more rationale to the situation.
a 911 caller who said three men had "flashed" a gun. And Cruz saw them "making a scene" on their way to the 7-Eleven near 2100 S. State Street.
Confronted by officers, the two men with Taylor held up their hands, while Taylor alone was "noncompliant."
So someone "claims" they saw someone "flash a gun". #1, open carry in Utah is not only legal, but it's one of the most encouraged states to do so.
#2, if someone did have a gun, what law were they breaking?
#3, if a law was being broken, did it justify this type of heightened threat?
Come on guys, do a LITTLE bit of research to find the facts yourself and make judgement. I would like to know what laws were "reported" being broken. We know at this point ZERO laws were "actually" broken, but what was the reported broken law-anyone?
Confronted by officers, the two men with Taylor held up their hands, while Taylor alone was "noncompliant."
So someone "claims" they saw someone "flash a gun". #1, open carry in Utah is not only legal, but it's one of the most encouraged states to do so.
#2, if someone did have a gun, what law were they breaking?
#3, if a law was being broken, did it justify this type of heightened threat?
Come on guys, do a LITTLE bit of research to find the facts yourself and make judgement. I would like to know what laws were "reported" being broken. We know at this point ZERO laws were "actually" broken, but what was the reported broken law-anyone?
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This should be illegal.
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No clue. If they flashed a gun in a threatening manner, and that's IF, threatening with a gun is assault with a deadly weapon.
@D241 you are correct about the gun laws in Utah. It is legal to own a gun. I believe it is legal to open carry (gun visible outside clothing). It's legal to conceal carry (gun hidden from view) with a permit. But in every state in the USA it is illegal to conceal a weapon & then flash it (brandishing).
State laws usually read something like this:
It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in another.
Ask yourself, in a state as open to gun possession/ownership/carry as Utah, what would a person have to do to get the police called on them.
Once the police are called to a scene they are responsible for clearing that scene. They could not let him walk off. The city would have then become responsible for any act he might have committed. All he had to do was stop with his boys, he might still be alive.
State laws usually read something like this:
It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in another.
Ask yourself, in a state as open to gun possession/ownership/carry as Utah, what would a person have to do to get the police called on them.
Once the police are called to a scene they are responsible for clearing that scene. They could not let him walk off. The city would have then become responsible for any act he might have committed. All he had to do was stop with his boys, he might still be alive.