Remember when MMA almost/sorta/kinda was a sport?

[Greenbean]

When that cage door closes, and all that's left in there is a ref and 2 bad hombres trained to kill each other, it is 100% sport. All the antics outside of the cage is entertainment, but you can tune that out easily if you want to. Just turn on the t.v. When the fights are on. Rankings are biased, but for the most part, the matchmaking is great. They've put on a lot of fights that I want to see, some missed opportunities, but nothing is perfect and you can't please everyone.

 

[Clappin'Daddys]

i chose 25% sport. it was as close to being a sport around 2014ish, but has gone down hill from there. as many have already mentioned, putting up pointless matches to bring in the money... one of the major things that stuck out at me though, was how even ufc execs dont respect their own titles.

remember when an exec said something like "there are no champions; there are only winners of the night" to save themselves from paying fees to the commissions? dudes devalued their own belts to save a buck.

 

[kneeblock]

I think the best still eventually fight the best, but for entertainment purposes, we just don't get it with the immediacy we'd like. The irony here is that most of us are strong proponents of fighters having agency in their careers, but the minute they exercise it, we seem to say someone should force them to do something else, which I don't agree with.

What needs to change is more equitable pay and marketing and a compensation system that incentivises fighting the top contenders as opposed to whomever has the biggest "name."

 

[Kingtony87]

What needs to change is more equitable pay and marketing and a compensation system that incentivises fighting the top contenders as opposed to whomever has the biggest "name."

In combat sports where revenue is generated by eyeballs watching. This is a pipe dream. Fighting is only a small part of their job. They are selling their own brand.

 

[kneeblock]

In combat sports where revenue is generated by eyeballs watching. This is a pipe dream. Fighting is only a small part of their job. They are selling their own brand.

I hear that. I just feel like it's not fair to have to spend time building a persona that could be better spent training. That's what the promoters and agents are there for, otherwise the fighters should just own the company.

 

[Kingtony87]

I hear that. I just feel like it's not fair to have to spend time building a persona that could be better spent training. That's what the promoters and agents are there for, otherwise the fighters should just own the company.

There's a lot more to it then that, matchmaking, production, expansion, drug testing, insurance, promoting 500 people with about 300 of them ever revolving. The guys that are going to do best are ones that are marketable. Gsp, bj, Anderson weren't guys with persona's but we're beloved and drew well. Other guys like tito, chael, Conor, and to some small extent Chuck figured out how to generate that same interest or more with a persona. There's a bunch of different reasons why certain people catch on and some don't. But there's for sure no formula.

 

[kneeblock]

There's a lot more to it then that, matchmaking, production, expansion, drug testing, insurance, promoting 500 people with about 300 of them ever revolving. The guys that are going to do best are ones that are marketable. Gsp, bj, Anderson weren't guys with persona's but we're beloved and drew well. Other guys like tito, chael, Conor, and to some small extent Chuck figured out how to generate that same interest or more with a persona. There's a bunch of different reasons why certain people catch on and some don't. But there's for sure no formula.

But Anderson never was considered a major draw and always needed his main events padded to get over the hump. GSP was an example of how the UFC's marketing as his being truly great and virtually unbeatable finally won over a fan base that got a little weary of his caution after he gained the title. Chuck advanced in the public eye mostly by continuing to win in devastating fashion and absolutely not because of anything that came out of his mouth (and in a much smaller overall market). When MMA fans are looking at a bygone era, the era we're looking at is one where your in cage activity got you the push first and foremost, but as a much larger sport, ephemeral qualities like marketability become more important.

The fighters don't have to own it outright, but could stand to get a much larger stake if they're selling themselves and having to perform at their peak. This was the premise behind the founding of Golden Boy promotions when it started. If fighters continue to be the primary arbiters of their own success while ownership maximizes profit and restricts their own ability to maximize value, it's an exploitative system.

 

[Kingtony87]

But Anderson never was considered a major draw and always needed his main events padded to get over the hump. GSP was an example of how the UFC's marketing as his being truly great and virtually unbeatable finally won over a fan base that got a little weary of his caution after he gained the title. Chuck advanced in the public eye mostly by continuing to win in devastating fashion and absolutely not because of anything that came out of his mouth (and in a much smaller overall market). When MMA fans are looking at a bygone era, the era we're looking at is one where your in cage activity got you the push first and foremost, but as a much larger sport, ephemeral qualities like marketability become more important.

The fighters don't have to own it outright, but could stand to get a much larger stake if they're selling themselves and having to perform at their peak. This was the premise behind the founding of Golden Boy promotions when it started. If fighters continue to be the primary arbiters of their own success while ownership maximizes profit and restricts their own ability to maximize value, it's an exploitative system.

Anderson was a top 3 draw for sure. Behind gsp and Brock. He was always one of their top earners. I agree with chuck it's fighting that did the drawing. But why couldn't aldo draw like that, any one else devastating, that's not the fault of the ufc. How many people have they pushed that people rejected???

And using anything from the boxing model seems pretty silly. There's how many guys over there making real money? And what happens when those few marketable fighters retire, those promotions are fucked. Hell mayweathers last fight his buys dropped huge. Mma is a sport where you get paid based on what you generate. That's not a secret, but guys act shocked when someone like Conor or Brock comes through and makes a ton of cash. As much as I love him objectively speaking for how any promotion should be ran, mark hunt shouldn't make near what Brock does.

 

[kneeblock]

Anderson was a top 3 draw for sure. Behind gsp and Brock. He was always one of their top earners. I agree with chuck is fighting does the drawing. Hit why couldn't aldo draw like that, any one else devastating, that's not the fault of the ufc. How many people have the pushed that people rejected???

And using anything from the boxing model seems pretty silly. There's horn many guys over there making real money? And what happens when those few marketable fighters retire, those promotions are fucked. Hell mayweathers last fight his buys dropped huge. Mma is a sport where you get paid based on what you generate. That's not a secret, but guys act shocked when someone like Conor or Brock comes through and makes a ton of cash. As much as I love him objectively speaking for how any promotion should be ran, mark hunt shouldn't make near what Brock does.

Again, it all makes logical sense why it is how it is, but it sucks for people who go through what they go through to fight to also have to be salesmen. It was probably inevitable that the sport would get to this point as it grew under the model the sport favored, but that doesn't mean it has to be this way.

Numbers released a few years ago estimated that the fighters receive roughly 7-9% of the revenues of the company. UFC employees counter that it's closer to 25-30%. We don't know and fighters don't know due to deliberate lack of transparency. In either case, that is far less than most other professional sports. NBA players make 50% and NFL players make 45% for example. MLB players are making around 38-40%. They also face less restrictive systems when it comes to ancillary earning and are not compensated on the basis of personality as much as experience and performance. I bring up the Golden Boy model only as an example of athletes recognizing that they were doing most of the heavy lifting in brand generation and drawing.

We can say that not all fighters deserve the same amount because of performance, but to penalize them financially (or by withholding title shots) due to lack of marketability on top of that makes it essentially pro wrestling. There are ways to incentivise the best fighting the best while still catering to fan appeal in an alternative structure. The system that's currently in place is only going to lead us further away from sport and toward more labor discontent.

 

[MMAHAWK]

50-50
The actual competition is the greatest sport in the world.The promotion and match making has become more entertainment because of the money now involved. Fighters in the past could make a name for themselves by winning. Fans could remember who they saw win the tournament or go on a big streak. They became familiar with and looked forward to their fights. Now with such a huge roster and so many fights. I don't think the casual fan can keep track any longer. The only way they know about many fights is when the Ellen,TMZ, or Loud Irish guy is Fighting.

 

[Kingtony87]

, but it sucks for people who go through what they go through to fight to also have to be salesmen

That is and will always be the nature of combat sports. No promoter of fighter could change that. It'd be up to us as fans, to tune in for all fights regardless and that will never happen.

Numbers released a few years ago estimated that the fighters receive roughly 7-9% of the revenues of the company. UFC employees counter that it's closer to 25-30%. We don't know and fighters don't know due to deliberate lack of transparency. In either case, that is far less than most other professional sports. NBA players make 50% and NFL players make 45% for example. MLB players are making around 38-40%. They also face less restrictive systems when it comes to ancillary earning and are not compensated on the basis of personality as much as experience and performance.

there are a few reasons this is a bad comparison, the first and major being production costs. All of those leagues pay zero in production it's covered by the networks while the ufc picks up all of that tab. Not to mention how crazy priced the insurance coverage would have to cost for combat sports, that the ufc and no other promoter offer, as well as the highest level of drug testing in any of those leagues. Which would also be huge financial burden. Also add in the mass amount of money spent in the last decade fighting to get mma legalized and global expansion. Hell mma was illegal in my state until recent. Now while we don't know what percentage of revenue the ufc pays out with any degree of certainty any kind of comparison doesn't hold up.

We can say that not all fighters deserve the same amount because of performance, but to penalize them financially (or by withholding title shots) due to lack of marketability on top of that makes it essentially pro wrestling. There are ways to incentivise the best fighting the best while still catering to fan appeal in an alternative structure. The system that's currently in place is only going to lead us further away from sport and toward more labor discontent.

I think you are over estimating how much value a title actually brings to a fighter. There are plenty of instances where champs are making less then other people in there divisions, which are totally justifiable. As much as we like to think these guys are paid to fight, the truth is they are paid to generate ppv $ and tv viewership which in turn equals advertising revenue. It's how the ufc makes their money so its how they dish it out to their fighters. The NFL doesn't make 13 billion a year because they are great athletes they NFL makes that much because they are the most watched thing on television and generate a ton of advertising money. If their viewership goes down so will their pay. MMA is too volatile a sport for that to be level across the board, some guys generate some guys don't. Rewarding the guys who don't figure out how to do so only hurts the guys who do. Who would in turn go somewhere that would pay them what they are worth.

 

[kneeblock]

That is and will always be the nature of combat sports. No promoter of fighter could change that. It'd be up to us as fans, to tune in for all fights regardless and that will never happen.


there are a few reasons this is a bad comparison, the first and major being production costs. All of those leagues pay zero in production it's covered by the networks while the ufc picks up all of that tab. Not to mention how crazy priced the insurance coverage would have to cost for combat sports, that the ufc and no other promoter offer, as well as the highest level of drug testing in any of those leagues. Which would also be huge financial burden. Also add in the mass amount of money spent in the last decade fighting to get mma legalized and global expansion. Hell mma was illegal in my state until recent. Now while we don't know what percentage of revenue the ufc pays out with any degree of certainty any kind of comparison doesn't hold up.

I think you are over estimating how much value a title actually brings to a fighter. There are plenty of instances where champs are making less then other people in there divisions, which are totally justifiable. As much as we like to think these guys are paid to fight, the truth is they are paid to generate ppv $ and tv viewership which in turn equals advertising revenue. It's how the ufc makes their money so its how they dish it out to their fighters. The NFL doesn't make 13 billion a year because they are great athletes they NFL makes that much because they are the most watched thing on television and generate a ton of advertising money. If their viewership goes down so will their pay. MMA is too volatile a sport for that to be level across the board, some guys generate some guys don't. Rewarding the guys who don't figure out how to do so only hurts the guys who do. Who would in turn go somewhere that would pay them what they are worth.

You and I are in the same state and city and I think we both know getting MMA here was symbolic more than anything and not indicative of the success or tenuousness of the sport.

We've been fed the same line about the volatility of the sport for decades and I just don't buy it anymore, particularly considering the recent sale, deep pockets of the new ownership and outside estimates that the UFC is one of the most valuable brands in sports today.

Saying that "is and always will be the nature of combat sports" just isn't reflective of the growth we've seen over the past several years in what was once a very niche market. Also, while the UFC shoulders all production costs, we don't know how much of their revenue that accounts for. We do know there have been offers made to take over production and they've turned them down, preferring to keep control of their brand at all costs while denying fighters the ability to do the same. As far as the money they sunk in to expand the sport, we know they made that back in spades after the recent sale so how long do fighters have to wait to make their claim?

You make a good point that titles are inherently meaningless to drawing power, but that doesn't mean the legitimacy of the idea that it's an actual sport isn't undermined by the fact that there is no incentive to follow anything resembling a ranking system besides occasional (and arbitrary) promoter strongarming.

I do disagree with the fundamental premise that fighters are being paid to sell PPVs. That is the promoter's job. That's the main reason they've existed in all combat sports; to sell the fight. A fighter's job is to perform well, which maybe brings with it some obligations to be entertaining, but consists of winning first and foremost.

If their only job is to sell PPVs, there's nothing stopping a group of say 100 top fighters from going out and selling their labor to say ESPN or Fox Sports or even an online streaming service to shoulder the production burden where they and their managers do all the marketing themselves and then go fight. Except they're prohibited by restrictive contracts in all existing promotions from doing so.

The sport can evolve, in revenue sharing, promotion, and meritocracy, but fighters will ultimately have to force the issue. When that happens, a lot of people are likely to be unhappy, including the fan base, at least for a little while. My hope would be reform before that moment occurs, but at this point, it seems highly unlikely.

 

[1031]

The fight itself is 100% sport.
The production exists to sell the sport.
The sport is supposed to be entertaining.

 

[Kingtony87]

I do disagree with the fundamental premise that fighters are being paid to sell PPVs. That is the promoter's job. That's the main reason they've existed in all combat sports; to sell the fight. A fighter's job is to perform well, which maybe brings with it some obligations to be entertaining, but consists of winning first and foremost.

No amount of promotion is going to turn, john fitch, Jake shields, or even Demetrius Johnson into draws. The reason I said it's volatile is because in a ppv based business the revenue is incredibly unstable. Look two years ago with the rash of injuries.

Or difference in ppv sales. Dj has accomplished far more then conor or ronda or Brock. But when the sports entire revenue is based on selling ppvs or drawing advertising income the fighter pay will be based on the same.

Under the sports current economy 10 DJ's wouldn't bring as much value to the ufc as one Conor. Dj fights doesn't help the ufc negotiate higher tv deals with fox or whoever the way someone who draws will. And he's quite possibly the most talented fighter ever. It'd be nice if fans tuned in as such but that's not reality.

 

[Kingtony87]

The sport can evolve, in revenue sharing, promotion, and meritocracy, but fighters will ultimately have to force the issue. When that happens, a lot of people are

I think until we see the sport move away from ppv and on to tv deals that have consistantly good ratings a la any of the major leagues this is impossible.

I'd fucking love to see it and do believe it's the ultimate goal for the sport (ufc) by those in charge. Every move has been jn that direction.

 

[kneeblock]

No amount of promotion is going to turn, john fitch, Jake shields, or even Demetrius Johnson into draws. The reason I said it's volatile is because in a ppv based business the revenue is incredibly unstable. Look two years ago with the rash of injuries.

Or difference in ppv sales. Dj has accomplished far more then conor or ronda or Brock. But when the sports entire revenue is based on selling ppvs or drawing advertising income the fighter pay will be based on the same.

Under the sports current economy 10 DJ's wouldn't bring as much value to the ufc as one Conor. Dj fights doesn't help the ufc negotiate higher tv deals with fox or whoever the way someone who draws will. And he's quite possibly the most talented fighter ever. It'd be nice if fans tuned in as such but that's not reality.

Agreed. The PPV model is a major part of the issue as the UFC by and large isn't dealing with a guaranteed revenue stream. This is why I said maybe this was inevitable in the current model.

Where boxing of course differs is that fighters are negotiating salaries per fight rather than being locked into a payment structure that isn't reflective of any growth in popularity or market share. The promoter assumes the risk separate from whatever labor negotiation takes place with the fighter. In MMA, fairly opaque projections are used to justify a fighter's value in what is ultimately a take it or leave it atmosphere. Except leaving it means having your career put on hold indefinitely until you cave in.

There are areas for reform here though (even under the PPV model) that will leave room for sport and entertainment to thrive alongside each other. A simple one would be to build a bonus system into facing top ranked contenders to incentivise champions to defend against them. This may be at a loss to the promoter, but it's a capitulation to the meritocratic origins of the sport. Conversely, let the talkers and self-promoters fight others in main events because going by the logic that they do better, they'll sell no matter what.

If more of the revenue share went to the fighters, there would be more room for these kind of stimulative programs to keep it both sport and entertainment, but the UFC has been about the fast buck for quite awhile and Bellator is 100% no different.

Generally I think they do a better job of having the top person in line eventually get their shot at the top than we pretend because, again, we want those fights right away. My biggest fear, however, as a fan is that we'll miss truly great fights due to a particular competitor being shy or just not great on the mic or having a language barrier, none of which are fair or good for the long term growth of the sport.

 

[RaginCajun]

MMA=Sport.
UFC=Entertainment mixed with sport.

 

[Kingtony87]

MMA=Sport.
UFC=Entertainment mixed with sport.

So which promotion is actually sport?

 

[Kingtony87]

Generally I think they do a better job of having the top person in line eventually get their shot at the top than we pretend because, again, we want those fights right away. My biggest fear, however, as a fan is that we'll miss truly great fights due to a particular competitor being shy or just not great on the mic or having a language barrier, none of which are fair or good for the long term growth of the sport

I think part of the problem is its too subjective, quality of wins vs how many, finish vs decision, all of these things hold different weights. Before lawler lost his title maia, wonderboy, and woodley all had decently legit claims to a title fight. Do you just let the other two sit out forever??? It's not that easy to have a system. Unless you try a tourney once a year like bellator did. But we all saw that mess.

 

[kneeblock]

I think part of the problem is its too subjective, quality of wins vs how many, finish vs decision, all of these things hold different weights. Before lawler lost his title maia, wonderboy, and woodley all had decently legit claims to a title fight. Do you just let the other two sit out forever??? It's not that easy to have a system. Unless you try a tourney once a year like bellator did. But we all saw that mess.

I think @scm1 has one of the best and most comprehensive ranking systems I've seen in the sport. If his system were applied to official ranking, I think we could see a case where a #1 contender is validated and a champion who takes that fight could recieve a monetary bonus for taking said fight. Say $500,000. That would be a champion's privilege. Likewise the contender could be given a bonus for retaining that status at the end of the year assuming the champion ducks them. The bonus for the contender would have to be sufficiently low to disincentivise total inactivity to game the system, but high enough to reward having ascended the ranks. Maybe $150,000? For every fight you take as #1 contender, you would receive this bonus. If you take on lesser opposition to stay active, I believe the algorithm penalizes your ranking, but only if the #2 contender is sufficiently close in W-L average.

If the champ wants to fight Conor McGregor or Ronda Rousey over and over during that time, it's their prerogative, but at least there would be some mechanism to make you consider giving top contenders a shot. The inclusion of a 1 defense a year clause before being stripped (which I believe exists already) could motivate the champ to fight. All of this would of course be separated from base pay and PPV points.

 

[Ted Williams' head]

We tend to compare MMA to "pure" sports like football, baseball, basketball, etc. In reality, MMA has more in common with boxing and pro wrestling!It's part sport, part spectacle! And will always be that way...

The business model is to sell as many tickets and PPVs as possible. Unlike "pure" sports, the audience doesn't expect 100% legitimacy in terms of abiding by rankings and putting the very best in there. Hendo/Bisping sold more tickets and PPVs than Bisping/Jacare would have, even though Jacare was clearly the more deserving challenger.

In contrast, MLB can't pull the Indians out of the World Series and replace them with the Yankees. A move like that would be catastrophic for business, even though the Yankees have a bigger fanbase and would draw more than the Indians, because people expect 100% legitimacy and would surely revolt and stop supporting the sport.

The biggest concern for MMA fans is to be entertained.

 

[Andrewsimar Palhardass]

What is the purpose of sport outside of entertaining the people? They aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[The EZ Life]

When that cage door closes, and all that's left in there is a ref and 2 bad hombres trained to kill each other, it is 100% sport. All the antics outside of the cage is entertainment, but you can tune that out easily if you want to. Just turn on the t.v. When the fights are on. Rankings are biased, but for the most part, the matchmaking is great. They've put on a lot of fights that I want to see, some missed opportunities, but nothing is perfect and you can't please everyone.

Agreed, if we speak on Mma as a whole. But isn't the UFC the company that decided to cut fighters like fitch who would win but be boring? That's what makes it 50/50 for me. I understand the sport needs to be exciting to have people watch it, but when you Put it out there that you will get cut if you fight boring even if you win every single fight it becomes less of a sport.


You know I'm starting to think as much as the UFC likes GSP they knew he'd bring that boring style back and they wouldn't want him as champ. Yes he'd bring in good money for whatever fights he had left in him, but only die hard GSP fans and ppl who heard about "the great GSP" but never watched his last 5 years of fights would buy a card with only him in it .
I'm actually like 95% positive if a casual fan new to the sport watched a GSP fight he/she would think this is pretty boring and never tune into one of his fights again