NSFW Transgender issues

[Ted Williams' head]

This has become such a hot topic over the last couple of years it seems. Where do you guys stand on it?

I support the rights of trans people to undergo the sex change procedures and to live their lives free of discrimination and misguided hatred. If a person believes that they are in the wrong body/gender, and feel that a sex change would make them truly happy, I say go for it. People need to live their lives and do what they feel will make them happy, as long as that doesn't involve hurting others.

That being said... it's hard for me to take seriously. A trans person says "I was born in the wrong body, my brain is the opposite gender"... and we say "ok, I guess you're right" without exploring the fact that maybe the person is suffering from a form of mental disorder. A doctor recommends them for transitional surgery, and that's it. If an anorexic person goes to a hospital and tells the doctor they feel fat, the doctor doesn't recommend them for lap band surgery. I'm not sure why transgendered get to "self diagnose" themselves.

Does this stuff not make sense to anyone else? They expect taxpayers to foot the bill for transitional surgery here in Canada. And now we have "transgendered children", where the parents elect to have their child go through surgery to prevent puberty and completely fuck with nature. Does an 8 year old really have the self awareness to make the at decision?

 

[Greenbean]

It's fine. As an adult and you have the money, you should totally do what you want as long as it doesn't harm others. Here's the problem though. It does harm others. My kids are going to go through the gauntlet of people saying it's ok, it's normal, it's cool.

I have a problem with that. No one wants someone's opinion forced on them. I don't like it any more than someone would like it if I pushed my pro 2a stance on them non stop. So now, my kids most likely will have a higher probability of becoming one, when they might not truly be. But due to social pressures, they will be more confused than ever and may take a path they otherwise would not take.

 

[ThatOneDude]

I have zero issues with someone wanting to change their bodies how they see fit as long as they aren't hurting someone else and the public isn't paying for it. I have no idea what it's like to be a transgendered person and the internal torture that they may or may not deal with.

 

[ThatOneDude]

You fucking cis gendered ASSHOLE

 

[Punch]

You fucking cis gendered ASSHOLE

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZOvAH8oR-Y

 

[Punch]

In seriousness, i don't care what anyone else does to themselves as long as it causes no harm to others. Who the fuck am i to judge?

 

[ThatOneDude]

In seriousness, i don't care what anyone else does to themselves as long as it causes no harm to others. Who the fuck am i to judge?

Your passive aggressive cis gendered white male privilege is showing

 

[Punch]

Your passive aggressive cis gendered white male privilege is showing

cis gendered? i'm sofa king ignorant.

 

[ThatOneDude]

cis gendered? i'm sofa king ignorant.

Of course your ignorant. That's a disgusting meme you posted. I bet if I posted a similar meme about Muslims forgetting to tuck in their suicide vest you'd have a problem with it. Why not give transgendered individuals the same respect terrorists get?

 

[Punch]

Of course your ignorant. That's a disgusting meme you posted. I bet if I posted a similar meme about Muslims forgetting to tuck in their suicide vest you'd have a problem with it. Why not give transgendered individuals the same respect terrorists get?

 

[ThatOneDude]

@Alienator I fail to see what's so funny about you mocking someone who doesn't hold the same beliefs as you.

 

[ThatOneDude]

I'm glad it's a joke to you.

 

[Punch]

@Alienator I fail to see what's so funny about you mocking someone who doesn't hold the same beliefs as you.

Well, i can't be accused of being heavy hearted about it, that's for sure. In truth, i hope everyone cuddles up together and sings kumbaya...blazed af.

 

[check it]

Does this stuff not make sense to anyone else? They expect taxpayers to foot the bill for transitional surgery here in Canada. And now we have "transgendered children", where the parents elect to have their child go through surgery to prevent puberty and completely fuck with nature. Does an 8 year old really have the self awareness to make the at decision?

i have no problem with public money being used for medical treatments in any situation. I think about it like this....if a person was born with genetic issues that gave them 11 fingers...or a cleft palate, surgery to correct those issues is a given. I think there is a specific genetic/biological/environmental reason during development of male/female characteristics in utero that causes this to happen. it's a thing..it should be corrected if the individual wants to physically appear as their biological gender.

as far as 8 year olds having the self awareness. that's a great question and probably best solved with intense psychiatric evaluations.
I'm around elementary aged kids a lot. I think they know something is up...as early as kindergarten or 1st grade. they might even identify as the opposite gender sooner but haven't had enough exposure to other people to realize it's something outside the norm.
meaning they're just happy being who they are until they start socializing in school then realize they're not as characteristically male as the other boys or vice versa.
you'd be surprised at how easy it is to spot kids that might be facing this challenge. I don't mean tomboy girls..or boys who don't like sports. I mean girls who much prefer to wear boy clothes, and always choose to be the dad or the brother during make believe activities....and insist on being called Jacob when her name is Allie. i let it fly. ..be who you are kid, right?

but it's probably a whole 'nother issue to make a life changing surgery decision at such a young age.

 

[ThatOneDude]

i have no problem with public money being used for medical treatments in any situation. I think about it like this....if a person was born with genetic issues that gave them 11 fingers...or a cleft palate, surgery to correct those issues is a given. I think there is a specific genetic/biological/environmental reason during development of male/female characteristics in utero that causes this to happen. it's a thing..it should be corrected if the individual wants to physically appear as their biological gender.

as far as 8 year olds having the self awareness. that's a great question and probably best solved with intense psychiatric evaluations.
I'm around elementary aged kids a lot. I think they know something is up...as early as kindergarten or 1st grade. they might even identify as the opposite gender sooner but haven't had enough exposure to other people to realize it's something outside the norm.
meaning they're just happy being who they are until they start socializing in school then realize they're not as characteristically male as the other boys or vice versa.
you'd be surprised at how easy it is to spot kids that might be facing this challenge. I don't mean tomboy girls..or boys who don't like sports. I mean girls who much prefer to wear boy clothes, and always choose to be the dad or the brother during make believe activities....and insist on being called Jacob when her name is Allie. i let it fly. ..be who you are kid, right?

but it's probably a whole 'nother issue to make a life changing surgery decision at such a young age.

Hey I want a set of fake tits, and plastic surgery to make me look more handsome. Thanks for paying for that. I think paying for critical or needed medical procedures is fine but paying for something elective, negatron. And why would they need surgery to look like their biological sex, isn't their biological sex the same as their physiological sex?

 

[Qat]

I'm not trying to paint a general picture, I will just tell you of people I know.

So I know two dudes who were/are actually on the path. Life is extremely difficult for them, and sometimes it is very difficult to be around them. Both have heavy issues with depression.

One dude is a very negative character, he is actually very introverted and seldom speaks about this tendencies to become a woman, but he is serious about it.. from what I can gather. I also know he made plenty research into this, down to the core of biology.
He's had girlfriends and stuff and his last girlfriend left him because of those thoughts and tendencies, and he probably wasn't happy with those relationships either. What I don't know is, if he is into dudes, but that probably does not matter.
His depression is severe, he dropped out of college due to not going, and as far as I know, does nothing now.
He has been to therapists but claims they cannot help him (which may be true). He is very aggressive sometimes, hating, and I mean real hating, on other people or stuff for the smallest things.
He can being very annoying, and really be a cunt to anybody, even those who care about him. This really makes being around him uncomfortable often. He knows that, and sometimes he apologizes afterwards, but he cannot stop it if it happens.
He is also totally one of those male feminists, in a very strong manner. He can start an argument on any unrelated matter and twist it into shit so that you believe he has to be trolling.. but he isn't.
When he was younger he just seemed like a normal dude, but I didn't know him well then either, so I cant really say. No clue when that set in or so. I could ask tho when I have the opportunity.
Now, would all of that go away if he were to start the process or after finishing it? I don't know.. It is really hard to say. But it is clear that he has psychological issues besides that. And those things might be connected or a symptom or it might be a symptom of those things.. who knows.

But one thing seems clear to me, that the way it is now, he will not be a productive member of the society, nor is he happy. And isn't that the main goal?

The other dude is quite different (I know him through dude #1 btw), but I also know him less good. While he is severely depressed as well and doesn't do anything, he is very very open about all of it and totally a nice guy. Couldn't even hurt a fly or be mean to anybody, even verbal. Except.. himself maybe. He is very open about everything, as I said, including suicidal thoughts, lots of them. And I can't deny that it is uncomfortable being confronted with those. Especially when he delivers them as if he is talking about his breakfast.
I actually believed his wish to be more real, since he also did a lot of cross-dressing etc. and just seemed very convinced and level-headed about it.
So he started the process, taking hormones - or whatever they do medically before a surgery - for a while.
But now I'm hearing that he stopped the process. Apparently he is on new psycho-pills (he changed pills often) and he realized that his wish to become a woman was not real... Well, I was surprised. But who the fuck knows really..

I think even psychologist cant know, and it is rather a try and error. But medically, some things are just like that.

@DannyNL
I think people should definitely be grown-ups to make that decision, and parents making the decision for them seems very crazy as well. There might be cases where it is abundantly clear, but then again.. hmm. Its hard to say.

 

[Chief]

Transgender 11 year old boy being put on hormones.

 

[Greenbean]

i have no problem with public money being used for medical treatments in any situation. I think about it like this....if a person was born with genetic issues that gave them 11 fingers...or a cleft palate, surgery to correct those issues is a given. I think there is a specific genetic/biological/environmental reason during development of male/female characteristics in utero that causes this to happen. it's a thing..it should be corrected if the individual wants to physically appear as their biological gender.

as far as 8 year olds having the self awareness. that's a great question and probably best solved with intense psychiatric evaluations.
I'm around elementary aged kids a lot. I think they know something is up...as early as kindergarten or 1st grade. they might even identify as the opposite gender sooner but haven't had enough exposure to other people to realize it's something outside the norm.
meaning they're just happy being who they are until they start socializing in school then realize they're not as characteristically male as the other boys or vice versa.
you'd be surprised at how easy it is to spot kids that might be facing this challenge. I don't mean tomboy girls..or boys who don't like sports. I mean girls who much prefer to wear boy clothes, and always choose to be the dad or the brother during make believe activities....and insist on being called Jacob when her name is Allie. i let it fly. ..be who you are kid, right?

but it's probably a whole 'nother issue to make a life changing surgery decision at such a young age.

There have been decades of research on child development. Believe me, I have two young ones and I have a plethora of resources at my disposal of regarding literature on whether my children are developing as they should.

They go through developmental stages. Of those is an adolescent confusion and curiosity of their gender. It's normal to wonder these things at different ages. It is not normal to not advance past that stage. That's a form of stunted psychological growth.

It's unfortunate that a lot of children experience set backs during development, and we should do our best to accommodate them. It's not their fault. Like we have speech classes for speech impediments. We should totally recognize and give compassion to anyone struggling. But that doesn't mean make it cool and push for more people to question their sexuality or gender. It means pushing for acceptance. Imo.

 

[Lamont Cranston]

I don't have a problem with it. Who am I to say how people feel in their own skin?

I think there should be a vetting process for those seeking to use public funds to do it but there is one already set up.

Although, it being a gov't set up, it probably needs tweeking...

 

[check it]

Hey I want a set of fake tits, and plastic surgery to make me look more handsome. Thanks for paying for that. I think paying for critical or needed medical procedures is fine but paying for something elective, negatron. And why would they need surgery to look like their biological sex, isn't their biological sex the same as their physiological sex?

i think there is a genetic/ biological reason the transgender thing happens...like a gene that causes a receptor to not get the testosterone it needs or estrogen that super multiplies at the wrong time( i made that up). so i related it to other genetic mutations that commonly get fixed with surgery.
although..11 fingers may be more beneficial than a hindrance...but cleft palates usually get fixed shortly after birth.

i think that a person can have the chemical make up inside their body that leans more toward the female gender characteristics but is born with the physical traits of a male. the brain is a part of the body..so if the issue is also mental health related then any necessary treatment should be covered as well..

i think you'd look more handsome with boobs too.

 

[ThatOneDude]

i think there is a genetic/ biological reason the transgender thing happens...like a gene that causes a receptor to not get the testosterone it needs or estrogen that super multiplies at the wrong time( i made that up). so i related it to other genetic mutations that commonly get fixed with surgery.
although..11 fingers may be more beneficial than a hindrance...but cleft palates usually get fixed shortly after birth.

i think that a person can have the chemical make up inside their body that leans more toward the female gender characteristics but is born with the physical traits of a male. the brain is a part of the body..so if the issue is also mental health related then any necessary treatment should be covered as well..

i think you'd look more handsome with boobs too.

You obviously know more about adolescent development than myself. Have you read anything saying it's a genetic issue?

 

[MadFatChickKilla]

This has become such a hot topic over the last couple of years it seems. Where do you guys stand on it?

I support the rights of trans people to undergo the sex change procedures and to live their lives free of discrimination and misguided hatred. If a person believes that they are in the wrong body/gender, and feel that a sex change would make them truly happy, I say go for it. People need to live their lives and do what they feel will make them happy, as long as that doesn't involve hurting others.

That being said... it's hard for me to take seriously. A trans person says "I was born in the wrong body, my brain is the opposite gender"... and we say "ok, I guess you're right" without exploring the fact that maybe the person is suffering from a form of mental disorder. A doctor recommends them for transitional surgery, and that's it. If an anorexic person goes to a hospital and tells the doctor they feel fat, the doctor doesn't recommend them for lap band surgery. I'm not sure why transgendered get to "self diagnose" themselves.

Does this stuff not make sense to anyone else? They expect taxpayers to foot the bill for transitional surgery here in Canada. And now we have "transgendered children", where the parents elect to have their child go through surgery to prevent puberty and completely fuck with nature. Does an 8 year old really have the self awareness to make the at decision?

You sir hit the nail on the head.

 

[check it]

You obviously know more about adolescent development than myself. Have you read anything saying it's a genetic issue?

i don't know more than you...i just had a child development class last semester, so it's fresh in my mind.
i think the scientific world hasn't figured it yet... but people are researching the why and how to pinpoint a cause..
this is a bit of an article i read that made me think it could be genetic

"The article was led by researchers at Boston University School of Medicine (BUSM).

Disorders of gender identity affect as many as 1 in 100 people. Transgender individuals are those who identify with a gender that differs from their natal sex. Different etiologies have been suggested as the cause of transgender identify however none have been proven definitively.
The researchers conducted a literature search and reviewed articles that showed positive biologic bases for gender identity. These included disorders of sexual development, such as penile agenesis, neuroanatomical differences, such as grey and white matter studies, and steroid hormone genetics, such as genes associated with sex hormone receptors. They conclude that current data suggests a biological etiology for transgender identity."



and there's so many layers involved... as you can see by this excerpt from another scientific journal that mentions genetic factors during pregnancy as well as environmental factors after birth....and implications that parents may influence gender identity too.


"In addition to genetics factors and the hormonal environment during pregnancy, there are a number of other factors that could conceivably affect gender identity development during infancy and childhood. These include environmental hormone exposure, upbringing, and changes in the internal hormone milieu. To date, there has been minimal research on the role of environmental exposure on gender identity formation, and what research has been performed does not support a clear association (Cicchetti, 2003; Sandberg et al., 2003; Vreugdenhil, Slijper, Mulder, & Weisglas-Kuperus, 2002). However, both postnatal hormone levels and upbringing clearly play a role in the formation of gender identity. Research on these two areas frequently overlaps. This is because while hormone research consistently suggests a role for androgens in gender identity formation, it also consistently shows that androgen exposure does not fully determine gender, either before or after puberty.
even in those who might be expected to be gender dysphoric because of their genetic or medical background (Berenbaum & Bailey, 2003; Byne, 2006; Meyer-Bahlburg, 2005)."

 

[Ted Williams' head]

I'm not trying to paint a general picture, I will just tell you of people I know.

So I know two dudes who were/are actually on the path. Life is extremely difficult for them, and sometimes it is very difficult to be around them. Both have heavy issues with depression.

One dude is a very negative character, he is actually very introverted and seldom speaks about this tendencies to become a woman, but he is serious about it.. from what I can gather. I also know he made plenty research into this, down to the core of biology.
He's had girlfriends and stuff and his last girlfriend left him because of those thoughts and tendencies, and he probably wasn't happy with those relationships either. What I don't know is, if he is into dudes, but that probably does not matter.
His depression is severe, he dropped out of college due to not going, and as far as I know, does nothing now.
He has been to therapists but claims they cannot help him (which may be true). He is very aggressive sometimes, hating, and I mean real hating, on other people or stuff for the smallest things.
He can being very annoying, and really be a cunt to anybody, even those who care about him. This really makes being around him uncomfortable often. He knows that, and sometimes he apologizes afterwards, but he cannot stop it if it happens.
He is also totally one of those male feminists, in a very strong manner. He can start an argument on any unrelated matter and twist it into shit so that you believe he has to be trolling.. but he isn't.
When he was younger he just seemed like a normal dude, but I didn't know him well then either, so I cant really say. No clue when that set in or so. I could ask tho when I have the opportunity.
Now, would all of that go away if he were to start the process or after finishing it? I don't know.. It is really hard to say. But it is clear that he has psychological issues besides that. And those things might be connected or a symptom or it might be a symptom of those things.. who knows.

But one thing seems clear to me, that the way it is now, he will not be a productive member of the society, nor is he happy. And isn't that the main goal?

The other dude is quite different (I know him through dude #1 btw), but I also know him less good. While he is severely depressed as well and doesn't do anything, he is very very open about all of it and totally a nice guy. Couldn't even hurt a fly or be mean to anybody, even verbal. Except.. himself maybe. He is very open about everything, as I said, including suicidal thoughts, lots of them. And I can't deny that it is uncomfortable being confronted with those. Especially when he delivers them as if he is talking about his breakfast.
I actually believed his wish to be more real, since he also did a lot of cross-dressing etc. and just seemed very convinced and level-headed about it.
So he started the process, taking hormones - or whatever they do medically before a surgery - for a while.
But now I'm hearing that he stopped the process. Apparently he is on new psycho-pills (he changed pills often) and he realized that his wish to become a woman was not real... Well, I was surprised. But who the fuck knows really..

I think even psychologist cant know, and it is rather a try and error. But medically, some things are just like that.

@DannyNL
I think people should definitely be grown-ups to make that decision, and parents making the decision for them seems very crazy as well. There might be cases where it is abundantly clear, but then again.. hmm. Its hard to say.

Great post man, very interesting read.

People often point to the fact that the transgender community often suffer from severe depression due to their affliction as a way of legitimizing it. I have incredible empathy for them because I know suicide is rampant among the community. But as we know, just because something is real in someone's head, doesn't mean it's actually real. The 85lb anorexic woman feels she's too fat. The man with multiple personality disorder feels he is someone he's not. The schizophrenic hears voices coming from his closet.

Sexual reassignment surgery is often posed as the "be all, end all" cure to the transgender affliction. To not help a transgender person transition is to withhold insulin from a diabetic, or antiretroviral medication from someone with HIV. But it seems that suicide rates are still rampant among those who have transitioned. There's often severe regret and depression on that side as well.

It seems we should be trying to work on the mind instead of the body in these cases. In these cases where the mind thinks the body is wrong, I'm not sure why we automatically feel the mind is right to reject the body, given how rampant mental illness is now a days.

 

[ThatOneDude]

i don't know more than you...i just had a child development class last semester, so it's fresh in my mind.
i think the scientific world hasn't figured it yet... but people are researching the why and how to pinpoint a cause..
this is a bit of an article i read that made me think it could be genetic

"The article was led by researchers at Boston University School of Medicine (BUSM).

Disorders of gender identity affect as many as 1 in 100 people. Transgender individuals are those who identify with a gender that differs from their natal sex. Different etiologies have been suggested as the cause of transgender identify however none have been proven definitively.
The researchers conducted a literature search and reviewed articles that showed positive biologic bases for gender identity. These included disorders of sexual development, such as penile agenesis, neuroanatomical differences, such as grey and white matter studies, and steroid hormone genetics, such as genes associated with sex hormone receptors. They conclude that current data suggests a biological etiology for transgender identity."



and there's so many layers involved... as you can see by this excerpt from another scientific journal that mentions genetic factors during pregnancy as well as environmental factors after birth....and implications that parents may influence gender identity too.


"In addition to genetics factors and the hormonal environment during pregnancy, there are a number of other factors that could conceivably affect gender identity development during infancy and childhood. These include environmental hormone exposure, upbringing, and changes in the internal hormone milieu. To date, there has been minimal research on the role of environmental exposure on gender identity formation, and what research has been performed does not support a clear association (Cicchetti, 2003; Sandberg et al., 2003; Vreugdenhil, Slijper, Mulder, & Weisglas-Kuperus, 2002). However, both postnatal hormone levels and upbringing clearly play a role in the formation of gender identity. Research on these two areas frequently overlaps. This is because while hormone research consistently suggests a role for androgens in gender identity formation, it also consistently shows that androgen exposure does not fully determine gender, either before or after puberty.
even in those who might be expected to be gender dysphoric because of their genetic or medical background (Berenbaum & Bailey, 2003; Byne, 2006; Meyer-Bahlburg, 2005)."

Interesting.